US Bashing

[Skipjack]

Just for the record, I am an European and I am NOT in support of the arabs. In fact I am very concerned by how they are literally invading us and how they are procreating like bunnies. If you ask me, they dont need to fire a single bullet and will still conquer Europe by simply procreating 5 times as much as the average Europeans do.
Just to make this clear.
However, I am against fighting wars that are not helping our cause, while we are neglecting more useful investments elsewhere.
I am also against keeping potentially innocent people in prison without them having been prooven guilty at a court of law. Them being tortured is just the top on that. If that is happening elsewhere in the world as well (I am not sure whether MSimon was trying to say that when he pointed me to Egypt), then this is equally condemnable.
I mean wasnt there a case of a guy that was (actually married to a US woman) held in by US officials and tortured, because of a mistaken name? Sorry but the innocent need to be protected at all cost, otherwise we are not better than nazis!

[ravingdave]

Iran is certainly a major problem, but they haven't blatantly violated Westphalian norms the way Saddam did in seizing Kuwait, which again is where that whole issue started.

But he did that 10 years before the US invaded Iraq in the second gulf war! Iran has always been a bigger problem for the US and Israel, much bigger problem than Iraq every was. Why do you think the US supported Iraq with intelligence and military power in its war against Iran?
Iran still is a bigger problem, even though Syria and Jordan have been sending terrorists and terrorist recruiters into Iraq since the start of this war to recruit among those that hate the US (e.g. because they lost children, or other relatives to US bombs).
And the Saudies might be trying to appear nice, but they so are not nice people. Get your facts straight!

And we have Jimmy Carter to thank for Iran being such a huge problem right now. Had he not pressured the Shah on human rights, and had he came to the Aid of the Shah when the Shah requested it, we would not now be facing the nightmare of Iran and several Million people would not have died.



Thank you Jimmy Carter !
Stuff like this Usually happens when the Democrats get into the Presidency.

David

[Skipjack]

Stuff like this Usually happens when the Democrats get into the Presidency

Well Reagan was not too smart in supporting the Afghans either...
As I said earlier, the US has no great history in the middle east.

[ravingdave]

Stuff like this Usually happens when the Democrats get into the Presidency

Well Reagan was not too smart in supporting the Afghans either...
As I said earlier, the US has no great history in the middle east.

Au Contrer mon frer (pardon my french, or lack thereof. )

The support of the Mujahedeen was for the purpose of helping them drive out the Soviets. It was part of Reagan's grand strategy to undermine the Soviets at every opportunity and was part of his effort to collapse the Soviet Union.

It obviously had unintended consequences, but a mistake it was not.

Even if you consider it to be a mistake, does it approach the millions who died in the Iraq/Iran war because Jimmy Carter allowed the Shah to be overthrown by religious fanatics ?

That story isn't even over. Mutually Assured Destruction works on people who fear death. It doesn't work at all on Religious Fanatics who welcome it! Iran with an ICBM ? Hello millions of dead people.


David

[Mike Holmes]

Just to be clear, the vast majority of Iranians have quite a healthy fear of death. Their vociferous leader who seems to be like the religious fanatics is an exception, and one about to be voted out of office for his extremism.

Mike

[Skipjack]

Lets just say that we share the same opinion on the fact that Iran is probably among the most dangerous countries right now.

I still cant quite get over the fact though that the same Mujahedin that were supported by the US in their struggle against the USSR, turned into, terroristic, fundamental, massmurdering, acid at little girls throwing nightmares of any western oriented person with a government that probably hated the US more than they hated the USSR back in the days (makes you wonder).
Yeah the Afghan war was just one of many ways that allowed Reagan to drain the USSR of money and slowly bleed them to death (awesome strategy, he is among my personal top ranking politicians of the 20st century, actually). The issue was that the US did not care to pick up the pieces when the USSR was gone. Instead they let them fall into anarchy, from which rose a new faction that through fear and terror aquired leadership in the country (the Taliban).
Had the US bothered to stay and direct things, maybe this could have been avoided (maybe not).
My fear is that the same thing could happen in Iraq as soon as the US troops are gone. It might be as far away as the next election there.

Even the NATO- friendly Turkey, that US urges us so much to let into the EU is very close to "turning".
One reason why the havent yet is their constitution by Kemal Pasha (Attaturk). He had the foresight to ensure the separation of state and religion in his country to the point that the military has the right (actually the duty) to assume power if this is in danger.
The EU leaders are to stupid to understand the importance of this part of the turkish constitution, as they make it the main reason to not include the turks into the EU (this constitution is considered undemocratic... well just wait until the mullahs take over, then you will see a lack of democracy or sure...). Anyway, besides this constutional law, the religious right has gained in about every election in recent decades.

[MSimon]

You have spoken to the Egyptian Government about this? I'm sure they will be interested in your concern.

You have spoken to the Iranian Government about this? I'm sure they will be interested in your concern.

I nominate France to clear up the torture problem in Egypt and perhaps Belgium could have a go at Iran.

I am sorry I cant follow what you are trying to say here. Have you been smoking that stuff again?
;)
JK

Yep. Tobacco. It is good for mild-schizophrenia. Also severe. My degree? Make up your own mind.

My point is that any torture the US has done is mild and very infrequent.

In Egypt and Iran it is severe and frequent. It would seem rational to confront the most severe problems first.

The rule seems to be: if the US is not perfect we don't care what happens any where else. And since the US will never be perfect. Well then, the worst miscreants are permanently off the hook. Lucky for them.

[Skipjack]

The rule seems to be: if the US is not perfect we don't care what happens any where else. And since the US will never be perfect. Well then, the worst miscreants are permanently off the hook.

There is always someone worse, but that still does not make this right.
I do not quite understand though how that has anything to do with Iran and Egypt. I agree that things that happen in Iran are bad, sure evil country, no question about it.
One might just as well say that you are worse because most countries in Europe do not have anything remotely as bad as Guatanamo Bay... Both seems kinda silly. No, even taken all by itself, this is an unacceptable thing. I think it is the most shameful thing that has happened in the US in decades (I am actually having a hard time thinking of something worse in the last century, help me out please!).
The death penalty, while not acceptable to most civilized european countries is more acceptable to me than Guatanamo Bay.
Why? Because Guatanamo is against the constitution (yes your beloved one) and against the geneva convention and against the Den Haager landwar rules even.
This thread is about the many people in Europe and all over the world bashing the US. Well, this is one of the reasons.
You either live with people bashing your country or correct your errors. Guatanamo is one of them.

[Roger]

My point is that any torture the US has done is mild and very infrequent.

In Egypt and Iran it is severe and frequent. It would seem rational to confront the most severe problems first.

Should the US even bother to set the example?

Would it not also be rational for my country the US, to set the standard by which those other countries are measured? And can we set a higher standard than was set over the last 8 years. And can we not use the power of our example to advantage? Vs the example of our power.

I feel ambiguous about those crazy Americans,NOW they torture more mildly and less then the Iranians.

Not like in the old days, we would always get our people back from the Americans quite intact.

[alexjrgreen]

My point is that any torture the US has done is mild and very infrequent.

I really, really wish you were right, but you're in denial here. Ask some searching questions and you won't like the answers any more than I do.
http://www.americantorture.com/the_book.html

In Egypt and Iran it is severe and frequent.

Very nasty. Inexcusable.

...and Egypt offers an outsourcing service...
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2005/05/09/black-hole

[MSimon]

alex,

War is some ugly shite. You either do what you have to do to end it as soon as possible and limit the misery or you let the misery multiply and go on for many decades.

Short and ugly is my preference. Call it the incentive plan.

There is a good alternative: battle field interrogations and then shoot any one not in uniform as spies using battle field drum head courts. That eliminates the years of misery problem - put the miscreants out of their misery.

You see - you can't just do one thing. Humans are involved. Adjustments will be made.

Of course we can be nice and just send any one caught back to their country of origin. Or maybe we let the Saudis handle the problem. Nice gentle folks the Saudis with modern sensibilities.

War is not nice - I think W.T. Sherman said something to that effect.

Still I think American methods are preferable to Egyptian methods. The miscreants at least come out with all their body parts intact and some unforgettable memories. Pour l'encourager les autres.

[olivier]

Just for the record, I am an European and I am NOT in support of the arabs. In fact I am very concerned by how they are literally invading us and how they are procreating like bunnies.

Fertility rates of the US and some mediterranean and middle-eastern countries (source: CIA 2008)

• Italy = 1.30
  France = 1.89
  Tunisia = 1.93
  Iran = 2.04
  United States = 2.05
  Turkey = 2.14
  Lebanon = 2.21
  UAE = 2.31
  Morocco = 2.38
  Algeria = 2.38
  Israel = 2.77

Unsufficient rates for rabbit farming.

[alexjrgreen]

There is a good alternative: battle field interrogations and then shoot any one not in uniform as spies using battle field drum head courts. That eliminates the years of misery problem - put the miscreants out of their misery.

Must you be so final in your solutions?

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

Gandalf in JRR Tolkien The Lord Of the Rings, Book Four, Chapter One "The Taming of Sméagol"

http://www.commongroundnews.org/article ... sid=0&sp=0

[MSimon]

There is a good alternative: battle field interrogations and then shoot any one not in uniform as spies using battle field drum head courts. That eliminates the years of misery problem - put the miscreants out of their misery.

Must you be so final in your solutions?

There is always the relatively mild American methods of interrogation. They leave no physical marks. The purpose of all interrogations is to change psychology. It would be rather surprising if that left no psychological marks. And the worst of those marks is that you have betrayed your cause and your comrades. You lose your faith. You are a broken man. The price of going to war. If your faith requires war you are screwed. Time for a new religion.

alex,

I think your difficulty is that you envision some kind of perfect world. That option is currently not open. There is better and there is worse. I chose better knowing that it is much less than perfect.

War is a test of wills. Some people's wills are going to get broken in the process. They are called losers.

[seedload]

I really, really wish you were right, but you're in denial here. Ask some searching questions and you won't like the answers any more than I do.
http://www.americantorture.com/the_book.html

Torture is bad. The US should not engage in it. Either should the British. Whatever either of our countries has done it is not nearly as pervasive and disgusting as what happens all over the world. Does that make it right? No. We should continue to make all efforts to end it.

regards