GIThruster wrote: How does this alter the fact that Cannabis makes people nuts? It's an hallucinogen. Do you understand? An HALLUCINOGEN. It separates people from reality. It makes them into chronic liars. It turns normal people into thieves. It makes people completely unrealistic about life and what should be their expectations. It makes them forget things. It reduces intelligence measurably and immediately, even after the effects wear off.
Well your self admitted past drug abuse has certainly effected your mind, wouldn't argue with that.
From MSimon link:
Alcohol hallucinosis is a rather uncommon alcohol-induced psychotic disorder only being seen in chronic alcoholics who have many consecutive years of severe and heavy drinking during their lifetime.[4] Alcoholic hallucinosis develops about 12 to 24 hours, and could very well last for days, after the heavy drinking stops suddenly. It involves auditory and visual hallucinations, most commonly accusatory or threatening voices.
GIThruster wrote: It destroys ambition. DO YOU UNDERSTAND, that the signs of this drug use, are nothing like the signs of alcoholism? Alcoholic teenagers do not suddenly start lying about everything in their lives and the difference is not in its prohibition. The difference is in the drug itself.
Alcoholic teenagers don't lie and steal?! (well probably don't need to steal so much presumably; after all alcohol is legal and cheap; probably got the habit from their parents).
If cannabis is so bad why is it so prevalent? Why isn't prohibition working? After all alcohol prohibition was such a success that the Prohibition Amendment was repealed. BTW I didn't notice a Federal Drug Prohibition Amendment. Another Federal usurpation.
BTW Colorado is already showing signs of a decline in youth use. Just as I predicted. It is showing about a 9% decline in traffic accidents with death and injury. Just as I predicted.
Prohibition is a vector for the spread of use. And it looks like the evidence here in America supports that. It is not just Portugal. So your idea that prohibition prohibits anything is non-sense. Just as I said it was.
What do you call someone whose every prediction is wrong? Must be the alcohol delusions.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
MSimon wrote:If cannabis is so bad why is it so prevalent? Why isn't prohibition working?
It is working. Only the stupidest 9% use Cannabis. Count yourself special.
Ah. But that is the same proportion that use alcohol to excess. In fact if you look at the research (fat chance) you will find that switching between drugs (depending on availability) or polydrug use is not uncommon.
Now what else affects drug/alcohol use that also affects about 10% of the population? PTSD. And of all the drugs legal or illegal for PTSD cannabis is the one found to be the most effective with the least side effects. You can look it up.
And funny enough the dysfunctions attributed to cannabis are also found in those with PTSD. So it may not be the cannabis at all. It may be the PTSD which cannabis users self medicate for. To date no large studies have been done on this question because if it was found to be true it would take away the last rationalization for prohibition. I don't think Americans would stand for a war on people with PTSD.
Have a nice day.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Law enforcement officers say the marijuana butter they used gave “excellent” results and cannabis “gave me my life back” during testimony in a twisted case that has already driven one officer to take his own life.
As chronicled in a series of articles published by the MLive Media Group, three corrections officers including Mike Frederick and Todd VanDoorne secured their medical marijuana physician’s certification from a pain management doctor. In 2011 or 2012 the officers began using butter infused with marijuana, which they purchased from licensed caregiver Timothy Scherzer, to alleviate pain.
In July of 2013 the Michigan Court of Appeals ruled that concentrated forms of marijuana, such as the butter the officers consumed, were no longer included within the protections of the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act (MMMA). According to attorneys, the officers had no idea the interpretation of law had changed and simply continued their successful treatment program using the medicated brownies. The officers were found out, their homes were raided in March of 2014 and drug charges were filed against several people.
The third officer, Timothy Bernhardt, plead guilty to maintaining a drug house and other charges. After facing the loss of his career and the potential of testifying against his fellow officers, Bernhardt committed suicide on November 16.
Frederick and VanDoorne were in court for an evidentiary hearing Jan. 21 when the testimony about marijuana’s beneficial effects was given.
“The medical marijuana was excellent, completely different from the narcotics. I could still do things, still carry on daily chores,” VanDoorne testified.
Both men began using brownies containing marijuana-infused butter in 2011 or 2012. According to their own sworn testimony the marijuana treatments were far superior to the prescription medications the officers had initially been prescribed.
Years ago, VanDoorne underwent surgery to fuse vertebrae together and suffers from chronic pain. He was put on a standard pain treatment program featuring prescription-strength pain killers. The side effects those medications had on the corrections officer left him sometimes lethargic, and sometimes angry.
When VanDoorne used the cannabis medicine he found a very different result.
“It gave me my life back. It was a good thing.”
His co-defendant Frederick also testified to the medicinal benefits of using brownies made with the medicated butter. Frederick has diabetes and neuropathy.
One of the men charged in the case was Brian Tennant, who had more than 20 years on the force in the Kent County Sheriff Department. His wife is a registered medical marijuana patient, and Tennant typically picked up the pre-made medicated butter for her and the other officers from Scherzer. ”I pick up prescriptions for my wife… I believed I was operating within the law,” he said during testimony in December.
At that time his attorney Jeffrey Crampton said, “We are extremely disappointed that the sheriff and prosecutor teamed up in a witch hunt to prosecute four distinguished corrections officers who had no idea that marijuana butter had been ruled illegal by the Michigan Court of Appeals in a twisted bit of logic.” Tennant plead guilty and received probation, a $10,000 fine and the loss of his job.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
MSimon wrote:We are so lucky alcohol users are saints ....
Whenever you use the word "alcohol", I immediately see this:
They get Alcohol!!!! I want my WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!
We have no obligation to be consistent. We don't have to be "fair" to weed. Alcohol has a ten million year old cohabitation with us. We can put up with the damage it causes without wanting more from another drug.
I am perfectly willing to let brats throw their tantrums, though I wish someone would box their ears more often.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —
Uh D. In so far as we know weed (there are records or evidence) has been used for 5,000 years and medicinally used for the same amount of time. According to records and evidence.
Now just what do you suppose was preventing men from using cannabis for as long as they used alcohol? Given that men probably used everything in their environment.
The Prohibition law of 1937 was a relatively recent event. And Promoted by Progressives. It is wonderful seeing your support for them. Especially given that there is no Federal Prohibition Amendment. But I guess using the Constitution for toilet paper is now the position of the left and the right. Unity at last.
But in any case conjecture doesn't matter. Prohibition is going down. Because it doesn't work. It can't work. The economic incentives are wrong. What bothers me is that the last time the Republicans lost on a Prohibition the socialists got installed for quite a run. You would think that would bother you. But it doesn't. You would think you would give way on the issue to win on more important ones. But you don't. It is a wonder.
I look forward to our new socialist masters. I'm making friends with them. It may come to pass that I will need their help.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
MSimon wrote:Uh D. In so far as we know weed (there are records or evidence) has been used for 5,000 years and medicinally used for the same amount of time. According to records and evidence.
What sort of records and evidence would that be? I'm just curious because you're stipulating that it was used specifically for medical rather than spiritual or recreational, and apart from a written record I don't see how anyone could draw that distinction. So what written record of cannabis use for medical purposes goes back 5,000 years?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
Did I happen to mention that Jared Loughner was a pot head?
Marijuana: Tucson Massacre Suspect Jared Loughner Was 'Habitual' Pot User
An Army official says Tucson massacre suspect Jared Loughner, who wanted to sign up for military service two years ago, was a "habitual drug abuser."
The revelation brings up the question of whether marijuana played a role in an apparently troubled man's life. While cannabis is legal in California and is sometimes seen as a medicinal panacea in L.A., the pot shop capital of the nation, some say it has a dark side, especially for daily users.
Correlation does not equal causation. Every time someone points out "Well, this guy is completely messed up, and he uses pot! What a coincidence!" It makes me wonder, is he messed up because he uses, or does he use because he's messed up? Or is he messed up and just happen to use? I've known quite a few people that use pot, some daily, and none of them suffer from either the psychosis or laziness that some claim affects all pot users.
While that's true, it's also true one can't have Cannabis induced psychosis without the Cannabis. It's very easy to hide behind the correlation/causation question since causation is very hard to demonstrate, but it has been demonstrated many times which is why we have this diagnosis. Minimizing the observation that the vast majority of all criminals and murderers in our society use Cannabis, is really to ignore a huge red flag. So lets put the question the other way around. Suppose one did show causation. How would that affect your view of Cannabis? I'd wage not one iota. I'd bet most dope smokers, you can hit them in the forehead with the facts and they simply will not care. They love their drugs that much that they're willing to sacrifice the way we do, in order to fondle their drugs.
If you KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cannabis use is responsible for the majority of crime, the vast majority of violent crime, almost all murders and in particular mass murders, for the overwhelming majority of psychosis in society, homelessness, poverty, self-esteem failures, underachievement, memory problems, discipline problems, poor performance in general, etc., would you then admit we're better off criminalizing it or would you still have some excuse to loose that demon upon society?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
krenshala wrote:Correlation does not equal causation. Every time someone points out "Well, this guy is completely messed up, and he uses pot! What a coincidence!" It makes me wonder, is he messed up because he uses, or does he use because he's messed up?
Not suggesting there is a correlation. I only post examples of drug addict loons to be irritating to someone who is being irritating, and to show someone how it feels to be confronted with irrational and unsupportable emotional arguments.
It's just a form of "à bon chat, bon rat."
krenshala wrote:
Or is he messed up and just happen to use? I've known quite a few people that use pot, some daily, and none of them suffer from either the psychosis or laziness that some claim affects all pot users.
In life, some of us are capable of being race car drivers while the rest of us have to take curves slowly. I note that we make laws for the average, not for the exceptional.
I know and have known a *LOT* of people that got wrecked on Marijuana.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —
GIThruster wrote:If you KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cannabis use is responsible for the majority of crime, the vast majority of violent crime, almost all murders and in particular mass murders, for the overwhelming majority of psychosis in society, homelessness, poverty, self-esteem failures, underachievement, memory problems, discipline problems, poor performance in general, etc., would you then admit we're better off criminalizing it or would you still have some excuse to loose that demon upon society?
It would still make the WOD a miserable failure. After 40 + years into mass arresting/trying/incarcerating 700K a year of mostly minority youth while turning a blind eye to the predominate white middle class user like Jared Loughner in "D's" above post one could hardly conclude anything else. Pot is more available than ever, cheaper than ever, and 20X times more potent than ever; whether the WOD is a cause of that or not it sure as hell didn't prevent any of that. One would then strongly suspect that the supporters of the WOD are motivated by something else; most likely a powerful emotional biases in favor of punishing people they don't like; as in they don't care if it doesn't work, they just want to "get" those pot smoking hippies (an minority youth) they obviously fear and hate some much. Somehow the logic of treating drug addiction like the medical condition it obviously is just doesn't appeal to their need to hurt, punish, jail, beat those they don't like doing what they don't approve of.
williatw wrote:It would still make the WOD a miserable failure. After 40 + years into mass arresting/trying/incarcerating 700K a year. . .
How is incarcerating criminals a failure?
. . .of mostly minority youth while turning a blind eye to the predominate white middle class user. . .
Those users are not smoking dope on the street. You keep pretending that the law is being enforced differently for different races while the evidence is quite the contrary, and this clearly demonstrates your inability to cope with the actual facts of the issue. You keep bringing up this phony argument despite it has been dealt with on multiple occasions. What you're saying is simply not true.
Pot is more available than ever, cheaper than ever. . .
It is not any more available than it was 35 years ago, and it is certainly NOT cheaper. It is much more expensive. I'm told the dime bag is a thing of the past.
. . .it sure as hell didn't prevent any of that.
Cheesy rhetoric. Obviously you cannot look at the situation we have and see what WOD has prevented. You have to look at societies where drugs were permitted to see what WOD has prevented and we've done quite enough of that. You simply prefer to ignore the facts.
One would then strongly suspect that the supporters of the WOD are motivated by something else; most likely a powerful emotional biases in favor of punishing people they don't like. . .
Oh geesss. . .please put your tinfoil hat on when you want to spout like that.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
In 1936 they were not criminals in 1937 they were. And given the present trajectory by 2020 they will again not be criminals.
And you have yet to show me the Prohibition amendment. The Republicans of 1914 thought the Federal government did not have the power of Prohibition. In 2015 they now have that power? You must be one of those "living Constitution" Progressives.
BTW just because a law makes people criminals is no proof that they are. Jefferson understood this.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." -- Thomas Jefferson
“The error seems not sufficiently eradicated that the operations of the mind as well as the acts of the body are subject to the coercion of the laws. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. ” -Thomas Jefferson Notes on Virginia Query 17, 1782.
In case you haven't noticed the people are not submitting. And in fact they are getting the laws changed in addition to not submitting.
I might add that consumption of what ever we desire, obtained without theft, is one of those natural rights. Supposedly we learned that from Alcohol Prohibition. Not even a Constitutional Amendment could abrogate those rights. We will be learning the lesson again. The Republicans of 1932 couldn't stop it. Neither can the Republicans of 2015.
The only question now is - will we be entering a new Progressive era due to Republican intransigence or will the Republicans come to their senses?
Rand Paul came in #2 in the recent Iowa poll. And the margin was 1%. So there is some chance that Republicans are not going to repeat 1932. But it is early days yet and Paul only got 14%.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
