How close do you think we are from a third world war?

[ohiovr]

I would be surprised if the Russians didn't have their own NSA counterpart even in this day and age.

[ladajo]

Three points;

In a world where strategic meddling by the US

Russia is the King of Meddlers. The rest of the club sits in the Permanent Member Chairs.
There really is nothing new in states meddling with each other. This has gone on throughout all history and probably started the first time some cave group discovered another cave group within their LOCs.

So, you are exaggerating aspects to fit a story. Our problem is the very military and tools built to protect us have been usurped by progressives and turned against us, much less turned on others that don't toe the progressive line.

What did I exaggerate? That asked, I just have to disagree with your assessment of "our problem". You overestimate the capabilities of real life with the Hollywood/Internet conspiracy theoretical versions of reality.

The NSA is not what you think it is. Nor can it do what you think it can. The Russian's version of NSA is much more unfettered than ours. And if you don't realize that the Russians use influence to impact our's and other's citizens views of theri won governments and activities then you are niave. If there is one thing the Russians are good at, it is playing silly buggers with peoples' minds. Do you hear anyone complaining about Russian surveillance activities???

[mvanwink5]

NSA is a tool that is useful if you have the economic bully club. The economic bully club is useful only if the military is behind it. Ask Merkel or any of the other heads of state if the NSA is what they think it is. The point of ubiquitous cameras is the ability to blackmail or know how and who to hurt with economic sanctions. Neither Putin nor others have the data farms that the NSA has. The number of European countries the US has, with Trillions (capital 'T') just bailed out at the expense of every man, woman and American child is just one of the economic bully clubs, and Obama just took it out of his closet. And I don't have to tell you about the US military vs Putin's. Russia is not in the same ball game. But Obama wants Putin to Toe the progressive line.

The point of Putin being Captain Crook and Obama being Progressive Peter Pan is just imagery. The reality is Putin's image fits with his country and does not make him more than the feathers he wears. And Obamas "good" and "just" ordinary beer drinking, basketball hoop shooter, looking out for the poor against the imagined Dickens' world of dark, cold, inequality, is just the old Communist story line. But, like I said, Obama is who worries me and not Putin. Are you really telling me different? Telling me not to worry about my IRA, SS, the economy, the ability to afford electric power in the winter once EPA shuts the coal powered plants off NEXT YEAR?

And yes meddling has been every government's game. Our government was supposed to be different. It seems like those who worry about world's Putins think that the way to deal with them is to become them in soul. Then the issue becomes who serves who?

And finally, not to let a key point slide, is or is not Obama to the left of Putin? And how far left?

[Skipjack]

Just a few points:

Yes Putin is a megalomaniac, but in there is more to this story than just him being an asshole.

1. Russia did not have to invade Crimea in order to have access to the Black sea. It already had a treaty to have its fleet in the Crimea bases until 2047. So there was no need for this for that reason.

2. The US clearly intervened more than necessary during the recent overthrowing of the corrupt, but legally elected government in Ukraine. The idea that the US might establish a puppet government in Ukraine threatened Russia, since they do depend on their Black Sea fleet in Crimea and if the Ukraine joined NATO, they would have NATO forces literally within arms length of their fleet. In addition to this, Russia still has some of its rocket production in Ukraine. I think it is understandable that Russians would find that idea a bit threatening.

3. The current Ukrainian government is just as much a bunch of crooks as the previous one is. Tymoshenko is an oligarch that has made a significant part of her fortune by embezzling money. Her release from prison just shows how corrupt the current government in Ukraine is. Also shows how the other oligarchs are looking out for one of their own. Might be a reason for why the whole turmoil in Ukraine was staged to begin with. I found it quite telling how the multi billionaire that made much of her fortune by embezzling other peoples money, then immediately held the open hand towards western governments for support for her "beloved and oh so poor and oppressed country", tear duct press. How about giving away some of your billions for the country that you claim to love so much instead of asking everyone else for it? But I am sure she would never think of that. Shows clearly how these types of people think.

4. Putin broke several treaties by annexing Crimea and his aggressive stance on things does not help defusing the situation. The silly part is that all this will probably hurt Russia more than it will help.
IMHO, Russia has already lost in this conflict, even if they were to take all of Ukraine. All they will get is a lot of conflict, resistance and a complete loss of cooperation from other potential allies "what you want to put bases into my country? We just saw what happened in Ukraine, so sorry, no!". People will be a lot more skeptical of Russia's intentions plus economic sanctions will hurt Russia (and everyone else too).

So this is all just clearly a bunch of bullshit. The west would do best in staying as far away as possible from Ukraine and the problems there, but I guess we just can never stop meddling in other peoples affairs. But just like with Syria, no matter what side wins, getting involved there will only cost us and not gain us much.

[choff]

There's a certain disconnect in all this.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-reviving-iron- ... 11975.html

http://www.stripes.com/news/diplomats-d ... tan-1.2757

We cooperate with Russia on supplying the ISS, no worries about them leaving the astronauts stranded in retaliation. We still reply heavily on the Russian Federation supply route to the NATO army in Afghanistan. If they cut those supply lines NATO could get by so long as Pakistan didn't decide to double cross us. The Banksters wouldn't care so much about the Afghan operation dying on the vine except they would loose control over the poppy crops, losing drug trade revenue would bite.

So how is it we quarrel over Ukraine and still do business as usual over Afghanistan and the ISS? Unless all the hype is for public consumption/support and a backroom deal was done to begin with, maybe a little disaster capitalism using nukes.

Not unless the Banksters are so greedy stupid/geography challenged they won't care until they do loose Afghanistan, the only choice for the NATO troops would be to drive up to the Khazakstan border lay down the weapons surrender to Russia.

[mvanwink5]

Final point, the major substantive interest Obama has in Ukraine is future elections and positioning Republicrat progressives as dangerous war mongers. My suspicion too is that the Prog's would really like to put a collar on Putin and will try to finesse that. So, no, there won't be US military action or Russia nuke use, however, "punishing" economic sanctions will be levied, you know the whole progressive narrative. I don't doubt for one minute that Putin will "secure" Ukraine, but there will be a vote which will "legitimize" it. All this guberment drama will come at the expense of real (but just the little) people, but for Prog's that is just collateral damage.

I don't think this was Putin's original plan, but US $5 billion and other meddling in Ukraine got the ball rolling. Then the rest just played out.

PS CHoff has some other points. Bottom line is just a bunch of messing around.

[Skipjack]

Oh and I am sure that somewhere some crony is making a whole lot of money of that mess...

[ohiovr]

Oh and I am sure that somewhere some crony is making a whole lot of money of that mess...

Oh yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBZWqUKziPQ

[ladajo]

Tzar Vladimir & Co. planned Ukraine for while. They were very prepared.

Russian access to Crimea for basing rights was a limited agreement. It had constraints and restraints that artificially limited Russian force levels, access and activities. It also cost money. Now, it is free with no limits. Crimea also provides a direct warm water(ish) direct commercial port access for Russia. The only one. This is further cemented with the pre-planned bridge project across the strait. If Russia grabs the rest of the Ukraine, or even just the east, this further amplifies this access and LOCs.

The control and access to warm water shipyards and arms production facilities is also another plus.

Crimea has always been and always will be a corruption heavy area. It is deep in the culture and DNA. This is a perfect fit for Putin Mafia, LLC, formerly known as "Russia".

Where Putin may lose in all this is the ability to manage corruption on this large a scale. His actions predicate another big Russian fish that will grow teeth and eat him. He is also teeing up against his perception that Europe is a bunch of pussies that can't agree on anything. He applies this to NATO, which has 28 members that must agree unanimously for an article 5 event. I think he is underestimating the fear and instability his putting his dick on the table brings to the EU pussies in question. They will not act out of strength. Pushed enough, they will act on fear. I think Tzar Vlad underestimates the power of fear on pussies.

He is also already losing in that countries are now more inclined to seek the protective umbrella from the West and NATO. Finland, a long time "We ain't NATO" has just tipped over. They are now making "NATO we are with you" noises and proclamations.

Obama will do nothing to seriously confront Putin. Putin knows it. Putin also knows that Obama's clock is running out. Putin also remembers being "sanctioned" over Georgia, and how little it meant after a year or two. What ever Putin is going to do it will be sooner than later.

I predict it will be more of the same like Crimea, across Ukraine. He will use his special assets to foment unrest and attacks. He will then orchestrate staged reasons to roll across the border. He has enough nut in troops that he could take it to the western border in less than a week. The Ukrainian mil will make some valiant stands here and there, but will mostly do nothing but take happy snaps and post them to social networking.

The whole thing is a big joke to Putin, and he is about to show everyone how much so he thinks this.
Obama will still be trying to remember what he had for breakfast. Obama has no real plan, no real counter. Putin knows it.

[Skipjack]

Tzar Vladimir & Co. planned Ukraine for while. They were very prepared.

Russian access to Crimea for basing rights was a limited agreement. It had constraints and restraints that artificially limited Russian force levels, access and activities. It also cost money. Now, it is free with no limits. Crimea also provides a direct warm water(ish) direct commercial port access for Russia. The only one. This is further cemented with the pre-planned bridge project across the strait. If Russia grabs the rest of the Ukraine, or even just the east, this further amplifies this access and LOCs.

All not worth risking a large conflict over that. No, it was the revolution and the chance that Ukraine might join NATO, that scared Russia into making that move.
Not that they had much resistance in Crimea anyway.

The control and access to warm water shipyards and arms production facilities is also another plus.

But he was already in process of moving that to Russia. Plus a lot of the facilities will be of little use now that part of them is in the "western" part of Ukraine with sanctions blocking them from being useful to him. I think this might turn out to hurt him more than anything.

Crimea has always been and always will be a corruption heavy area. It is deep in the culture and DNA. This is a perfect fit for Putin Mafia, LLC, formerly known as "Russia".

Not disagreeing there, but so is the rest of Ukraine. This is definitely not limited to Crimea.

Where Putin may lose in all this is the ability to manage corruption on this large a scale. His actions predicate another big Russian fish that will grow teeth and eat him. He is also teeing up against his perception that Europe is a bunch of pussies that can't agree on anything. He applies this to NATO, which has 28 members that must agree unanimously for an article 5 event. I think he is underestimating the fear and instability his putting his dick on the table brings to the EU pussies in question. They will not act out of strength. Pushed enough, they will act on fear. I think Tzar Vlad underestimates the power of fear on pussies.

Some of those "pussies" kicked Russian ass in two world wars.

He is also already losing in that countries are now more inclined to seek the protective umbrella from the West and NATO. Finland, a long time "We ain't NATO" has just tipped over. They are now making "NATO we are with you" noises and proclamations.

Absolutely! This is what I said.

Obama will do nothing to seriously confront Putin.

And he would be stupid to. Sanctions and political gains from all this cost less and bring more in the long term. As you said, this only hurt Russia's reputation, even among potential allies.

Putin also remembers being "sanctioned" over Georgia, and how little it meant after a year or two. What ever Putin is going to do it will be sooner than later.

Well, I also remember that the Russians did leave Georgia despite the fear mongering of Georgia being swallowed by Russia that certain people had been throwing around.

I predict it will be more of the same like Crimea, across Ukraine. He will use his special assets to foment unrest and attacks.

Not everything that was staged in the Ukraine was staged by Russia. Lots of staging going on on both sides there. Lots of propaganda and falsified "evidence" of wrongdoing by each party. A huge mess there!

He will then orchestrate staged reasons to roll across the border. He has enough nut in troops that he could take it to the western border in less than a week. The Ukrainian mil will make some valiant stands here and there, but will mostly do nothing but take happy snaps and post them to social networking.

He wont. He has not done so until now, he wont do it. He might (and that is a big might) take some parts of eastern Ukraine. That would be bad too, but that is something he could do.
All of Ukraine would be too much for Russia to handle. He would be sitting of a powderkeg with half a country that hates him and everything Russian. Plus, it would alienate the west to the point that a normalization would be impossible. I do not think he is crazy enough to do that. It would hurt Russia more than it would gain (which is already the case with Crimea).

The whole thing is a big joke to Putin, and he is about to show everyone how much so he thinks this.
Obama will still be trying to remember what he had for breakfast. Obama has no real plan, no real counter. Putin knows it.

What do you want to do? Hmm? Start WW3 over this? Everyone would loose. It is better to use this as a political means to further isolate Russia both politically and economically and continue the encirclement of Russia with pro western countries that are now, more than ever, going to be eager to become allies and NATO members or associates. That is how you gain the most from the situation.
This is a huge mess for Russia and a huge political (and economic) loss in the long term. It is pretty clear to me and I am surprised that you do not see it. I guess your ideological disdain for Obama makes you miss the otherwise obvious.

[ladajo]

All not worth risking a large conflict over that. No, it was the revolution and the chance that Ukraine might join NATO, that scared Russia into making that move.
Not that they had much resistance in Crimea anyway.

Ukraine was a long way from joining NATO as a full up member at Putin knew it. That was not a factor, just rhetoric. NATO for one did not trust the integrity of Ukraine forces and government for long term and dangerous Russian infiltration.
Putin's best argument re NATO was "Why do you need NATO? What is the point? Who is the enemy?" He has now definatively blown that out of the water by defining himself as the enemy. I know you get this.
The revolution was against his intervention. He (more likely his Mafia Council) tried to prop up their guy. It became ugly and unsustainable. Putin already had intervention plans in the kit, and decided to use them. That is what you are seeing.

Not disagreeing there, but so is the rest of Ukraine. This is definitely not limited to Crimea.

Absolutely. Just not as far gone as Crimea. Even the Ukraine mainland did not actually want Crimea. It is a huge drag.

Some of those "pussies" kicked Russian ass in two world wars.

Well, not so much or for so long. The Russians killed more Russians in WWII than anyone else.
In case you forgot, the Russians took half of Europe. They would have it all, if not for US intervention. Granted it was US intervention that enabled the Russians to press the fight. However, it was also the US that drew the line.

Absolutely! This is what I said.

And I agreed with you. It will be the single greatest damage to Russia as this plays out over time. It will amplify the business world's mistrust of doing business in Russia as well. He is cutting his own country's throat. I think the part you still don't get is that he really doesn't care. He is in it for himself. His has very similar traits to Qaddaffi, Hussein & Amin. The personality and practice parallels are scary.

And he would be stupid to. Sanctions and political gains from all this cost less and bring more in the long term. As you said, this only hurt Russia's reputation, even among potential allies.

No, he would not be stupid too. He needs to balance Putin against the second and third tier clowns. The only real reason Putin is a first tier player (barely) is that he is sitting on a nuclear arsenal. But as a bully, that suits him just fine. Don't think that the tier 2 and 3 clowns don't see this and think on it. This is where Obama needs to step up to the plate and put US Troops in Eastern Ukriane with a clear message of not frick with them. They don't need to do anything useful other than be there. Obama also needs to get some folks in there to assist in rolling up and putting on display Russian infiltration personnel. He also needs to mount a Global awareness campaign addressing the Hypocracy of Putin in regard to Russian actions in Ukraine v. actions in Syria, Iran, Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Chechnya, Tatars, Afghanistan, Kaliningrad, etc. etc. and so on. Obama so far has done frick all to bring out these points loud and clear. We face a deep threat to international stability from Putin's actions over the last years. He is encouraging both on purpose and not all the other wannabes. They will be the ones that start a war. And they have in several instances. For example, if you don't understand that the Little Fat Child in DPRK is not getting play book ideas from what he sees Putin doing, I really don't know what to say to you.

Well, I also remember that the Russians did leave Georgia despite the fear mongering of Georgia being swallowed by Russia that certain people had been throwing around.

Well not really. They are still messing around in Georgia, and they have not forgotten that they need to finish there either. Don't forget that they carved off bits there as well (South Ossetia and Abkhazia).

Not everything that was staged in the Ukraine was staged by Russia. Lots of staging going on on both sides there. Lots of propaganda and falsified "evidence" of wrongdoing by each party. A huge mess there!

Yes, I agree both sides did it. But, I will point out that the Russian agents, embeds and handlers did much more of it. And continue to do so. Russian has always had a well developed Influence apparatus. They put a lot of resources into this capability. It truly is the one thing they do well IMO. And ironically, they carried this skill set forward from the Tzarist times, through Soviet times and right into the Federation.

He wont. He has not done so until now, he wont do it. He might (and that is a big might) take some parts of eastern Ukraine. That would be bad too, but that is something he could do.
All of Ukraine would be too much for Russia to handle. He would be sitting of a powderkeg with half a country that hates him and everything Russian. Plus, it would alienate the west to the point that a normalization would be impossible. I do not think he is crazy enough to do that. It would hurt Russia more than it would gain (which is already the case with Crimea).

I think he will. He has more to gain by grabbing it all than half. He will take half for sure. If he takes it all, he rolls out all the way to Romania. And that is a plus for him. Remember, he is in it for himself, he is not in it for the greater good of Russia. He could give a crap about the common man. He already has folks playing suicide bomber in Moscow, it doesn't really bother him.

What do you want to do? Hmm? Start WW3 over this? Everyone would loose. It is better to use this as a political means to further isolate Russia both politically and economically and continue the encirclement of Russia with pro western countries that are now, more than ever, going to be eager to become allies and NATO members or associates. That is how you gain the most from the situation.
This is a huge mess for Russia and a huge political (and economic) loss in the long term. It is pretty clear to me and I am surprised that you do not see it. I guess your ideological disdain for Obama makes you miss the otherwise obvious.

Putin has a deep and clear disdain for Europe. In case you have forgotten, he did his formative adult years in East Germany. He sees the expansion of NATO as a mechanism that weakens it. He knows they don't have money nor will to get serious about defending Europe in a cooperative manner. NATO is already broken and he knows it. He can continue to motor on. especially if he sticks to picking off former satellites. If he lives long enough, he will surprise you with how far he takes things. He really doesn't care, nor have any respect for the rest of the world. Europe is pretty high on his pee on them list. So is Obama.
Putin is a bully. He only respects one thing, and that is prowess. I don't want WWIII, but I can tell you that the choice in my mind is simple. Fight him now while it is small and cheap. Or fight him later when it is going to be expensive and nasty. Putin will fight now, but keep it small. He will not escalate to WWIII.
Later, after a lot more expansion and growth, he will have bought further into his own "Power" and be much more amenable to tossing nukes around.
Also, the longer he is given reign to do as he pleases, the more likely some lower tier clown is going to get froggy and start a fight that could well spiral out of control.

As a closing note, in regard to "Russian Isolation". This is a red herring. Putin is in a strong swing already to tying economics to China. And China does not give a crap about world opinion on who they trade with. They are very happy to buy more Russian oil, gas and military gear.

[paperburn1]

Also a point that needs reiterating is Russian disdain for Obama. They call him "The crying boy" If you understand Russian that is a very high insult. Implying a weepy whiner that likes women underwear.
Putin thinks when push comes to shove the current administration will back down.

[choff]

What happens to the NATO army in Afghanistan if we cheese the Russians off so much in Ukraine that they switch sides and support the Taliban instead?

[Skipjack]

Ukraine was a long way from joining NATO as a full up member at Putin knew it.

Did not have to be a full member to be considered dangerous to Russia. Just putting missile defense there could have been considered threatening.

He has now definatively blown that out of the water by defining himself as the enemy.

Absolutely agree and this is why this will cost him more than he will gain. Any hope of having bases in other countries and more alliances in the region is gone.

The revolution was against his intervention. He (more likely his Mafia Council) tried to prop up their guy. It became ugly and unsustainable. Putin already had intervention plans in the kit, and decided to use them. That is what you are seeing.

Well the revolutionists are no better than the others were and it is pretty obvious that the US was planning to instate a puppet government instead of the ELECTED government (intervention came from both ends there). I can see how that would anger a few people. It sure makes me very much against interfering in the Ukraine and for staying out of this mess.

Absolutely. Just not as far gone as Crimea. Even the Ukraine mainland did not actually want Crimea. It is a huge drag.

Timoshenko, is all I say to that. She is not from Crimea, from what I understand.

Well, not so much or for so long.

Dude, we did kick their ass and for a long while that despite the fact that Russia had thousands of tanks built with US technology. If we had not attacked them first, Russia would have rolled over Europe before the US could have been there to stop them. Much of the battles at the end of WW2 were focused on letting the US advance and holding Russia back.

No, he would not be stupid too. He needs to balance Putin against the second and third tier clowns. The only real reason Putin is a first tier player (barely) is that he is sitting on a nuclear arsenal. But as a bully, that suits him just fine. Don't think that the tier 2 and 3 clowns don't see this and think on it. This is where Obama needs to step up to the plate and put US Troops in Eastern Ukriane with a clear message of not frick with them. They don't need to do anything useful other than be there.

I absolutely disagree. This would just benefit the military industrial complex in the US and multinational arms manufacturers. I am convinced that these interests keep getting the US involved with wars all over the world. So glad we did not go into Syria. The rebels there are worse than the current regime.

Obama also needs to get some folks in there to assist in rolling up and putting on display Russian infiltration personnel.

Be careful there, I know for sure that a lot of that was staged. There is a lot of infiltration and false flag propaganda going on on both sides.

He also needs to mount a Global awareness campaign addressing the Hypocracy of Putin in regard to Russian actions in Ukraine v. actions in Syria, Iran, Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Chechnya, Tatars, Afghanistan, Kaliningrad, etc. etc. and so on.

Oh come on. Chechnya is full of muslim extremists of the same kind as Afghanistan and other regions where the US has troops and kills people in UAV bombing raids. Again things are not black and white.

We face a deep threat to international stability from Putin's actions over the last years. He is encouraging both on purpose and not all the other wannabes. They will be the ones that start a war. And they have in several instances. For example, if you don't understand that the Little Fat Child in DPRK is not getting play book ideas from what he sees Putin doing, I really don't know what to say to you.

You can not compare NK to Russia. NK is a little fat child and Chinas support for them is waning. Once that is gone, they are free game and that will be soon. Putin is being a little bullish, but so has the US been over the past decades. I don't really see that big of a difference between the two. It really depends on your personal POV.

Well not really. They are still messing around in Georgia, and they have not forgotten that they need to finish there either. Don't forget that they carved off bits there as well (South Ossetia and Abkhazia)..

They are out of Georgia, they are in Abkhazia and South Ossetia via bilateral agreements by the local governments who do not like the Georgians anywhere near them (most understandably).
However, their view of Russia might be negatively affected by the things happening in Ukraine.

Yes, I agree both sides did it. But, I will point out that the Russian agents, embeds and handlers did much more of it.

That depends on who you ask. There are serious news reports from European countries (large media outlets there), that cast serious doubts about the situation in Ukraine as it is depicted by the US media. I do have the benefit of speaking multiple languages. So I do not depend entirely on English language media. Either way, to me the situation is a lot less clear than it is to you. I say we should stay out of it. Everything else does not help and only cost the US taxpayers billions for yet another stupid war.

I think he will. He has more to gain by grabbing it all than half. He will take half for sure. If he takes it all, he rolls out all the way to Romania. And that is a plus for him. Remember, he is in it for himself, he is not in it for the greater good of Russia.

I was right about Russia leaving Georgia and I will be right about this too. I don't think they will take Ukraine. Maybe a small part of the eastern Ukraine, but that's it.

Putin has a deep and clear disdain for Europe. In case you have forgotten, he did his formative adult years in East Germany. He sees the expansion of NATO as a mechanism that weakens it. He knows they don't have money nor will to get serious about defending Europe in a cooperative manner. NATO is already broken and he knows it.

I am confused here. Putin clearly had an issue with the missile shield in Poland, among other things. Germany is one of the largest arms producers in the world. German weapons are much more effective than Russian, plus we Germans still know how to fight, if we have to. We don't like war, but if Putin came knocking on our door, we would kick him all the way back to Petrograd.

He can continue to motor on. especially if he sticks to picking off former satellites.

Which ones has he picked off so far, other than Crimea? Just wondering what I must have missed.

Putin is a bully. He only respects one thing, and that is prowess. I don't want WWIII, but I can tell you that the choice in my mind is simple. Fight him now while it is small and cheap. Or fight him later when it is going to be expensive and nasty. Putin will fight now, but keep it small. He will not escalate to WWIII.

Yeah, because all that has always worked so well historically
Germany thought that in two world wars and see where it go us!

Later, after a lot more expansion and growth

Well so far his expansion and growth has been VERY limited, unlike the growth and expansion of NATO and western allies...

, he will have bought further into his own "Power" and be much more amenable to tossing nukes around.

Yeah, because tossing nukes around will be a good idea no matter how strong or weak you are
You can not win a nuclear war, period.

Also, the longer he is given reign to do as he pleases, the more likely some lower tier clown is going to get froggy and start a fight that could well spiral out of control.
As a closing note, in regard to "Russian Isolation". This is a red herring. Putin is in a strong swing already to tying economics to China. And China does not give a crap about world opinion on who they trade with. They are very happy to buy more Russian oil, gas and military gear.

Who is not tying economics with China right now? Even former sworn enemies are. Like it or not, but China is about to get stronger than the US economically. It is an important market and business partner for everyone.

[ladajo]

I fundamently disagree with you on many of your points.
Some of your points I agree with.

Your anti-american stance colors your judgement and perception.

Your 'adapted' history and knowledge of current affairs is also amusing. It brings you an interesting perspective that does not neccessarily marry up with reality.

By the way, you can win a nuclear war. The U.S. did. Your view of a nuclear conflict is greatly skewed by media, hollywood and internet hype. You really have no idea what a real nuclear fight would look like. Even a two sided one. I leave that particular topic there, as I can not see anyway to press on further in this forum.

There is no necessity to put "missile defense" in Ukraine. If it was there, it would be completely irrelevant to Russia anyway. I don't think you get how it works.
You are grasping at straws with that one.

it is pretty obvious that the US was planning to instate a puppet government instead of the ELECTED government

The U.S., contrary to your internet conspiracy view of world affairs, had no control over what happened in Kiev. And in fact, the Obamanation made a clear point of staying neutral and out of it. "We support the right for self determination". I woul dlove to see you defend this observation with some kind of proof. I doubt you can.
This is a fine example of your unfounded interpretation of things as they are.

If you really understand Ukriane, then you would really understand the Crimean situation pre-Tzar Vlad active intervention.
I have friends that live there. I have some that until recently lived there. I talked with them extensively on what was going on. An inside view.
They pulled no punches on either side of the argument. You have no basis other than supposition on your part for what Crimea was and is now like. Nor do you have a good grasp on what actually went down there.

Please cite for me where Europe kicked Russian ass in WWII. The best you have is Germany, and that did not go well. As for "attacking them first". Yes, a clear strategic effort to lose the war on Hitler's part. He guaranteed his doom with that call. Apparently you are ignorant of the deals he made with Stalin.
And at that point in the fight, Russia had not "thousands of tanks built with US technology." They had jack shit. As for organized combat on the part of Germany at the end of the war. Not so much. Yes, there was a well founded fear of Russian advance, but no real ability to slow or stop it. Show me where Russia was "held back" by German efforts.

So glad we did not go into Syria

What is this "we" shit Austrian man?

On the mythical benefit to the military industrial complex, you are out to lunch. Every time we roll troops, it takes away from procurement. You really have no idea how the current system's economics works. We don't have money to fight right now. Our kit is in great need of some depot level refurbishment. For the military and the defense companies that provide support, it is a very bad idea to deploy to a fight. On the other hand, the military exists as an extention of national policy and will. And here is where the money is made. The expenditure of blood and treasure is in support of objectives. There are current objectives and future objectives that nest. It is apparent that you do not see how all this meshes.

Be careful there, I know for sure that a lot of that was staged.

Really? How? Prove your bold assertation.

Chechnya is full of muslim extremists of the same kind as Afghanistan

This point was lost on you. It is about Tzar Vlad's and Russia's Hypocracy of Self Determination. You didn't get it.
Putin has opened himself up to some pain. Unfortunately, the western governments have once again missed tha bus to light him up.

You can not compare NK to Russia.

I was not comparing the two. They are apples and oranges. Unfortunately, the Little Fat Child is prone to thinking he is a tough guy like Putin. Apparently it went right over your head. I don't really know what to say to you on this. The niavity is a bit overwhelming.

They are out of Georgia, they are in Abkhazia and South Ossetia via bilateral agreements by the local governments

Again, overwhlemingly niave. I don't know what to say. I'll try with this; Russia is NOT out of Georgia. And those "bilateral agreements" are about as valid as Crimea's annexation was.

There are serious news reports from European countries (large media outlets there), that cast serious doubts about the situation in Ukraine as it is depicted by the US media. I do have the benefit of speaking multiple languages.

This is exactly my point. This is how Putin knows NATO is broken. You didn't get it again.
Also, you are not the only one who speaks more than one language or has access to multiple language reporting. In fact, I would wager that I have a much broader view of cross language reporting than you do. Goes with the job.

Putin's rhetoric about "Missile Defense" is for his internal audience. He does not see it as a threat. You are niave again.
If it really mattered to him, do you think he would be stirring things up like he is? He sees it as an opportunity to leverage more nationalistic rhetoric in Russia. He truly hopes that NATO does useless things like deploy 10 F-16s somewhere, or make an agreement for a ground based radar, blah blah blah.
He also knows full well that NATO, the bigger it gets, is less likely to agree on anything, or survive budget drama that goes with supporting a larger infrastructure. You have no idea how dismissive he is of the "Threat" that NATO actually poses. Sadly enough, he is probably not wrong. NATO is currently in no real position to do shit to counter anything he wants to try. And try shit he will. Putin is far from done, and only encouraged by recent events.

Yeah, because all that has always worked so well historically

Yes it has for the short term gain dictator. Very well indeed. That is why they keep doing it. They don't care about the country, they only care about themselves. How many times do I have to remind you of that?

Well so far his expansion and growth has been VERY limited, unlike the growth and expansion of NATO and western allies...

As I stated above, to date, NATO expansion has been a liability. Just like EU expansion. They picked the wrong dance partners.
Putin knows this.

You can not win a nuclear war, period.

Again, yes you can.

China is about to get stronger than the US economically

Maybe not. Folks thought Japan would displace the US as well. Look where they are, 25 years of train wreck.
China's train wreck is already in progress. You just don't know enough about China to get it. Multi-language Open Source Reporting. Gotta love it.