Whats happening in Turkey

[Skipjack]

Impartial evaluation of empirical evidence.

Well, it was not really me evaluating it. It was the Turkish people that I know. Besides this totally fits Erdogan's MO.

[Betruger]

Shit like this is textbook example of when to not trust anything but first hand evidence.

[Skipjack]

Shit like this is textbook example of when to not trust anything but first hand evidence.

Well, the first hand evidence is that Erdogan himself (at least originally) admitted that the recordings were real. Besides everyone in Turkey who is not a total idiot (like Erdogans followers) knows that Erdogan is an islamofascist crook who has embezzled billions from his country and is willing to murder his own soldiers for politican gain. Time for some reverse spring in Turkey (with the educated atheists revolting instead of the islamofascists). Wonder if the US will be so eager to help the rebels then...

[ladajo]

Wow. I seriously need to ask my wife if she is an islamofascist. I mean, this disease is spreading like wildfire! I wonder if she can get an immunization or something?

[Skipjack]

Wow. I seriously need to ask my wife if she is an islamofascist. I mean, this disease is spreading like wildfire! I wonder if she can get an immunization or something?

Well, I haven't heard of any educated turks that are not fundamentalists that have voted for Erdogan, especially after all the shit he has done and the things he has said (Islamic propaganda).
Oh yeah and in case you have not noticed, it IS spreading like a wildfire all over the world. Arab spring, Turkey, Syria, soon coming to a European country near you...

[ladajo]

Erdogan's primary voting block is rural uneducated. In the metro areas he goes after the poor blocks, of whom a large number have reduced educations as well. A good number of the 50-60 crowd did not finish (or start) high school. Leaving school at middle school ages to start work. He buys these votes with many empty promises and cheap rhetoric. Every now and then he throws some money at it as well. This will be less and less as one of his main funding sources for this "free money for votes" was our friend in PA.

Erdogan is all about becoming the next Ottoman Emperor with a lifetime leadership commitment and penchant for revenge on those who have "wronged" him, both past, present and future. However, the wheels that make Turkey go are fed up with the bullshit. There will either be change from a unified opposition, or, more likely, some form of violent open revolt. It is a shame. All so this idiot megolmaniac can amass self importance and wealth.

I disagree with you "wildfire" assessment. Most educated (truly) muslims I know (and I know many), are deeply revolted with the current state of affairs. In fact they see parallels to general developed and undeveloped population groups where the destitute and struggling are co-opted by promises of "seizing wealth" from those that have, beacuse they are "purposely keeping it from everyone". A load of crap by folks seeking a quick means to power and affluence at the expense of the stupid.

It is no different in your "isamofascist" crap. In fact, all you really accomplish is continued demostration how self-centered and biggoted europeans in general are, have been and want to be. It is in your European DNA to be so. And as long as it is there, hope for a co-operative and effective european block is a fantasy. Good luck with centuries more bloodshed inspired by greed and shallow misguided hatred that seeks to blame others for your own inherent issues. The last ones to pay for this were the Jews, and now it looks like you all are seeking to make Muslims the next on the list.

Idiots.

[Skipjack]

Erdogan's primary voting block is rural uneducated. In the metro areas he goes after the poor blocks, of whom a large number have reduced educations as well. A good number of the 50-60 crowd did not finish (or start) high school. Leaving school at middle school ages to start work. He buys these votes with many empty promises and cheap rhetoric. Every now and then he throws some money at it as well. This will be less and less as one of his main funding sources for this "free money for votes" was our friend in PA.

Erdogan is all about becoming the next Ottoman Emperor with a lifetime leadership commitment and penchant for revenge on those who have "wronged" him, both past, present and future. However, the wheels that make Turkey go are fed up with the bullshit. There will either be change from a unified opposition, or, more likely, some form of violent open revolt. It is a shame. All so this idiot megolmaniac can amass self importance and wealth.

I disagree with you "wildfire" assessment. Most educated (truly) muslims I know (and I know many), are deeply revolted with the current state of affairs. In fact they see parallels to general developed and undeveloped population groups where the destitute and struggling are co-opted by promises of "seizing wealth" from those that have, beacuse they are "purposely keeping it from everyone". A load of crap by folks seeking a quick means to power and affluence at the expense of the stupid.

But Erdogan is a muslim radical. He has been dead set on destroying everything that one of the greatest statesmen to ever live, Kemal Atatuerk built. Secularity has been destroyed in Turkey and when you did not see many women wearing even a headscarf in Turkey 30 years ago, you see more and more veiled women on Turkish streets these days.
The educated secular Turks that I know despise that and that is not a matter of being muslim or not, it is a matter of being a religious nutbag or not. Erdogan and his followers are religious fundamentalists and Erdogan is even working with Al Quaida. How is that not a step back from the secular Turkey that was 30 years ago? Either way, how can anyone with two eyes not see that there has been a severe radicalization in the muslim world in the past 30 years? As I said, what is happening in Turkey is a prime example. And I am not a fan of brining these people to Austria, where they then celebrate Erdogan and pillage historic churches while celebrating.

I am just going to ignore your asinine last paragraph.

[ladajo]

when you did not see many women wearing even a headscarf in Turkey 30 years ago, you see more and more veiled women on Turkish streets these days.

The dynamic you do not understand here is that if you take their (AKP & Supporter's) money, one of the requirements is that your women adopt conservative dress. The others are that they should stop working, and raise children only. I have seen this first hand with folks that my wife's family knows. And even some I have known at arms length over the years.
They take the money. "Business Loans", "Assistance", "Employment", etc. They pay the price.

As for my last paragraph. You yourself continue to dump all muslims into your "islamofasict" bucket. I say it makes you look traditionally european in the purist sense of biggotry. I have lived in europe, and also travelled there extensively many times. Biggotry is king of Europe. In my opinion it is based in the european national sport of blaming someone else for ones own problems rather than taking ownership. Centuries of examples.
Again, it would seem that the latest victim (and not the first time) of this behaviour would be muslims. I wonder if they will get monuments like the jewish did? Ironically, at one point europeans dumped jews and muslims into the same bucket. Gotta love history.
Remember, actions speak louder than words. You can say all you want, but the behaviour is biggotry.

As for your comments, I am oh so very sure there were literally thousands and thousands of Turkish heritage folks parading through the streets of Europe chanting and praising Erdogan and AKP "victory". Of course not one shred of supporting evidence for this has been provided by you. Just generic biggoted claims that all Turks in Europe are the trash of Turkey, and they need to go back from whence they came. But the reality that most of those "Turkish Islamofascists" are actually multigenerational europeans whose ancestors moved to Europe is not important. Only that they are dreaded "muslim fundamentalists" and Turkish. I guess the part where significant percentages are business owners and professionals that pay taxes and whose kids attend university and are born, bred, and identify culturally with the country they live in is not important either. You want to base your theories on misguided anger and emotional supposition. Look at the facts. Be rational. Or your children will be talking about how 6 million muslims were wiped out.

Stop being a Biggot.

[paperburn1]

Turkey is one of the places I know very little about other than my son in law spent several years there in the air force and seemed to love it.
Can someone break this down into flash cards for me.

[Skipjack]

when you did not see many women wearing even a headscarf in Turkey 30 years ago, you see more and more veiled women on Turkish streets these days.

The dynamic you do not understand here is that if you take their (AKP & Supporter's) money, one of the requirements is that your women adopt conservative dress. The others are that they should stop working, and raise children only. I have seen this first hand with folks that my wife's family knows. And even some I have known at arms length over the years.
They take the money. "Business Loans", "Assistance", "Employment", etc. They pay the price.

And that is what I have a problem with. I don't want it, I don't want people that support it. I don't want to even see it.

As for my last paragraph. You yourself continue to dump all muslims into your "islamofasict" bucket.

Nonsense! I never said such thing. I am talking about people like Erdogan and his followers who are anti secularism and who have themselves stated that they want the islamisation of Europe.

I say it makes you look traditionally european in the purist sense of biggotry. I have lived in europe, and also travelled there extensively many times. Biggotry is king of Europe. In my opinion it is based in the european national sport of blaming someone else for ones own problems rather than taking ownership. Centuries of examples.
Again, it would seem that the latest victim (and not the first time) of this behaviour would be muslims. I wonder if they will get monuments like the jewish did? Ironically, at one point europeans dumped jews and muslims into the same bucket. Gotta love history.
Remember, actions speak louder than words. You can say all you want, but the behaviour is biggotry.

Now you are the one who is a bigot.

As for your comments, I am oh so very sure there were literally thousands and thousands of Turkish heritage folks parading through the streets of Europe chanting and praising Erdogan and AKP "victory". Of course not one shred of supporting evidence for this has been provided by you.

This was mostly kept quiet by the official media, but it was hard to miss for those people that were actually there. Here is an article about the celebration at one of many public court yards in Vienna:
http://www.heute.at/news/oesterreich/wi ... 652,998931

This was at a rally Erdogan did in February in Germany (10,000 Turks celebrate Erdogan in Duesseldorf):
http://www.morgenpost.de/politik/inland ... ldorf.html

Just generic biggoted claims that all Turks in Europe are the trash of Turkey, and they need to go back from whence they came.

Actually, I never said that. My Turkish friend and coworker said that most of the Turks that emigrate to Germany and Austria are the kind, they don't even want in Turkey. I was simply quoting him.

But the reality that most of those "Turkish Islamofascists" are actually multigenerational europeans whose ancestors moved to Europe is not important. Only that they are dreaded "muslim fundamentalists" and Turkish. I guess the part where significant percentages are business owners and professionals that pay taxes and whose kids attend university and are born, bred, and identify culturally with the country they live in is not important either.

Unsubstantiated assumption. I know of just the opposite and so do those educated Turks that I surround myself with. A good example is Akif Pirincci a German Turk who writes very directly about how misbehaved many of his fellow countrymen are and how much this urks him because it gives educated and hard working Turks like him a bad reputation.

You want to base your theories on misguided anger and emotional supposition. Look at the facts. Be rational. Or your children will be talking about how 6 million muslims were wiped out.

There we go again, "reductio ad Hitlerem". Right now it looks more like it is going to be the other way round, though slower and less obvious (at least at first).
The bigots are those islamists (Turks and otherwise) that hate us western people and everything we and our society stand for.

[ladajo]

This was mostly kept quiet by the official media, but it was hard to miss for those people that were actually there. Here is an article about the celebration at one of many public court yards in Vienna:
http://www.heute.at/news/oesterreich/wi ... 652,998931

Oh my 250 turkish celebrators. And where does it show they were celebrating AKP other than a statement by the writer? In the pics it only shows Turkish flags. They could be celebrating anyone. The infamy. 250 of them. Oh my.

and then, you post a link from a 2011 event. Where tellingly, Erdogan is cited for saying that he "assures them protection and support from their home - and warns of his opinion, growing xenophobia and Islamophobia in Germany."

I wonder what he based that on?

And that is what I have a problem with. I don't want it, I don't want people that support it. I don't want to even see it

I don't like it either. But you should be grown up enough to realize that this sort of thing happens ALL AROUND THE WORLD IN EVERY CULTURE.
As for what you don't want to see? Please specify. Do you mean headscarves?

Nonsense! I never said such thing. I am talking about people like Erdogan and his followers who are anti secularism and who have themselves stated that they want the islamisation of Europe.

Then ton edown your rhetoic, because you come across as binning all muslims. And for the record, thee average Turk who votes for Erdogan does not give a shit about Europe. They just want a job and be able to take care of their family. If Erdogan is many things, one thing that has happened with him is that the Turkish economy has done better. That is what the average "I vote AKP" is noticing. Not much else.

Now you are the one who is a bigot.

Sure, if that is what you want to think. But for the record, I and my people don't have tens of centruies of history finding others to blame for problems and then attempting to exterminate them as the answer. Show me two europeans, and I'll show you an argument based in self-righteous indignation between them.

My Turkish friend and coworker said that most of the Turks that emigrate to Germany and Austria are the kind, they don't even want in Turkey

I think you friend and coworker is full of shit. I would ask you how many Turks emigrate to Germany and Austria each year for the last 20 years? How many emigrate back to Turkey each year in the same period?
I would also ask you to ask your friend about Turks who emigrate to America. Do they get the same opinion from Turks?

Unsubstantiated assumption.

Certainly no more than yours. And probably a lot less.

Akif Pirincci a German Turk who writes very directly about how misbehaved many of his fellow countrymen are and how much this urks him because it gives educated and hard working Turks like him a bad reputation.

Thanks for helping me make my point. I also ask if the word "many" is yours or his?

The bigots are those islamists (Turks and otherwise) that hate us western people and everything we and our society stand for.

Yes, hard over islamists are bigots. Just like hard over christians, buddists, and flagellating safire frog worshippers. Be careful, they will eat your babies. I read it on the internet.

[ladajo]

Turkey is one of the places I know very little about other than my son in law spent several years there in the air force and seemed to love it.
Can someone break this down into flash cards for me.

Flashcard #1: Erdogan & AKP = Democrats
Flashcard #2: Opposition CHP et. all = Republicans and Teaparty
Flashcard #3: Muslims don't eat your babies
Flashcard #4: Islamophobia is a Big European Problem

[ladajo]

A Dose of German Reality for the Misguided Bigot

No person is the target of this post.
It is presented as a general immunization opportunity to support the concept of thinking for one's self.

[Skipjack]

This was mostly kept quiet by the official media, but it was hard to miss for those people that were actually there. Here is an article about the celebration at one of many public court yards in Vienna:
http://www.heute.at/news/oesterreich/wi ... 652,998931

Oh my 250 turkish celebrators. And where does it show they were celebrating AKP other than a statement by the writer? In the pics it only shows Turkish flags. They could be celebrating anyone. The infamy. 250 of them. Oh my.

Well it was the AKP that won, LOL. I doubt the losers would be celebrating? Also it was a convoy of 250 CARS, not people. There were more people, but they only counted the cars since they were making more of an issue and this was in only one of the spots where they were celebrating (one that stood out because of the convoy of cars). Of course you can doubt the writer, but I know people that were there and saw it themselves. But of course you can believe whatever is convenient to you and your worldview.

and then, you post a link from a 2011 event. Where tellingly, Erdogan is cited for saying that he "assures them protection and support from their home - and warns of his opinion, growing xenophobia and Islamophobia in Germany."

I wonder what he based that on?

He is rallying the islamists, what else? Also the islamophobia is not without a basis. I mean you guys are fighting how many wars against islamists right now?!

I don't like it either. But you should be grown up enough to realize that this sort of thing happens ALL AROUND THE WORLD IN EVERY CULTURE.
As for what you don't want to see? Please specify. Do you mean headscarves?

I don't want to see an islamisation of Europe and the celebration of Turkey turning into an "Islamic dictatorship where Atatuerks heritage is destroyed" (words of my Turkish friends, not mine)

Nonsense! I never said such thing. I am talking about people like Erdogan and his followers who are anti secularism and who have themselves stated that they want the islamisation of Europe.

Then ton edown your rhetoic, because you come across as binning all muslims. And for the record, thee average Turk who votes for Erdogan does not give a shit about Europe. They just want a job and be able to take care of their family. If Erdogan is many things, one thing that has happened with him is that the Turkish economy has done better. That is what the average "I vote AKP" is noticing. Not much else.

That is always the way people like you argue. I say one thing and you are trying to put me into some corner. Well, I don't care, put me into a corner. I will say what I feel like and you can go and F yourself if you don't like it. Erdogan "in 20 years Koeln will belong to us" does the same thing. People like him make me loose all restraint.

Now you are the one who is a bigot.

Sure, if that is what you want to think. But for the record, I and my people don't have tens of centruies of history finding others to blame for problems and then attempting to exterminate them as the answer. Show me two europeans, and I'll show you an argument based in self-righteous indignation between them.

Black people, native americans, etc, etc. Who is in a glasshouse should not throw stones.

My Turkish friend and coworker said that most of the Turks that emigrate to Germany and Austria are the kind, they don't even want in Turkey

I think you friend and coworker is full of shit. I would ask you how many Turks emigrate to Germany and Austria each year for the last 20 years? How many emigrate back to Turkey each year in the same period?
I would also ask you to ask your friend about Turks who emigrate to America. Do they get the same opinion from Turks?

Well his opinion is the same as that of most educated Turks however. I do not know why you feel compelled to defend the islamofascist Erdogan? He is an asshole and moron and probably a murderer.
My friend went back to Turkey for his military service where he had to serve with other foreign Turks coming from Germany and Austria. these people had no manners and were bragging about how they were cheating the system to make the most money out of it. My friend does not like hearing that. It gives Turks a bad reputation. He himself is highly educated professional with great manners and a fantastic attitude. He is the closest to a friend, I have found here in Michigan. He is the sort of person I wished we had more of in Austria and Germany.

Unsubstantiated assumption.

Certainly no more than yours. And probably a lot less.

Unsubstantiated assumption

Akif Pirincci a German Turk who writes very directly about how misbehaved many of his fellow countrymen are and how much this urks him because it gives educated and hard working Turks like him a bad reputation.

Thanks for helping me make my point. I also ask if the word "many" is yours or his?

Read his book and find out! I mean really. You are doubting everything I say based on the assumption that I am in some way malevolent, when the truth is that I am just fed up with the malevolence of others that is now becoming so obvious as could be seen in the recent leaks about Erdogan (besides all the more subtle evidence of the corruption in his cabinet, where many investigations are ongoing). Yet, you are denying, clinging on to some fantasy of the bigotist European (Austrian and German, I guess), that is inventing all this, just to be a bigot. Dude, you should go for a visit to Germany every now and then. A couple of friends of mine toured Europe a few years ago. They were warned by the US foreign ministry about neo-Nazis in Germany (ridiculous). Well they said they did not see any and definitely had no problems with any neo-Nazis there, but they did have a lot of problems with Turks

The bigots are those islamists (Turks and otherwise) that hate us western people and everything we and our society stand for.

Yes, hard over islamists are bigots. Just like hard over christians, buddists, and flagellating safire frog worshippers. Be careful, they will eat your babies. I read it on the internet.

I am in neither one of these categories and I agree that they all are a problem. Maybe the Buddhists not so much, at least they don't blow shit up or murder people if they don't agree with their religion (or maybe I just don't hear about it as much).

[ladajo]

If you think I support Erdogan, you couldn't be more wrong. My issue is your earlier statements where you come across with a blanket condemnation of muslims and specifically Turkish muslims, and even more sepcifically, those that live in Austria and Germany.

On a side note, it was Europe that invented slavery and the destruction of native people in a desired real estate zone. I could list you centuries of examples, but it would be moot. In fact, the most damage done to the american indian population was actually at the hands of european settlers. What was done later by "americans" (who were really europeans) is another thing all together. Learn some history.

I am happy to hear that your "friend" went and did his military service. It is a bit surprising that he didn't buy his way out as most ex-pat turks try to do. I am sure at a minimum he paid his money to do the reduced service of a month or so.

As for Mustafah Kemal, or "Ataturk" (which is literal for Father of Turks), yes, Erdogan is seeking to minimize or remove his legacy. It stands in the way of him becoming the new Ottoman Emperor. At one point he even banned the pubilc display of the Turikish flag by citizens to this end. That is why I doubt you cited article. They were running around with Turkish flags. But I would not think that you would know that. You are a non-impartial biased Austrian/German. As for the "250", that was the words of your author. It was not 250 cars. It was "250 motorists". You think I can't read?

Erdgogan is not nearly as powerful as you give him credit for. He will not last. The flailing you see of late is that of a man running out of options, but still trying to win the race. He is now alienating his own party, AKP. Watch and learn grasshopper. These local elections were not a party election. So saying AKP won is disingenuous and uninformed. The real reason AKP has held on is that they have been able to keep CHP and the others fragmented enough to prevent vote blockage. That is starting to unravel as the many promises made by AKP for free stuff to the rural areas remain unanswered, while AKP corruption accusations and evidence continue to pile up.

Your real issue in Austria and Germany comes not from Turkish heritage immigrants (who were asked to move there by the countries), but from the Turkish Kurd asylum seekers. I met them in Italy, and saw them in England and Germany, France, etc. They are the ones who use the system for free stuff. And they are good at it.
My wife used to work for the Carabinieri in Italy doing interviews of these clowns when they got picked up as illegal immigrants. I know about this first hand, I sat in on occasion.