Alcohol Made Me Do It

[MSimon]

...why did Toronto Mayor Rob Ford think he was helping his case when he confessed in November that he "probably" smoked crack "in one of my drunken stupors"? Rep. Trey Radel (R-Fla.) seemed to have a similar idea after he was busted for cocaine possession a couple of weeks later. "I struggle with the disease of alcoholism," he said, "and this led to an extremely irresponsible choice."

http://reason.com/archives/2014/01/01/d ... er-excuses

What more proof do you need that alcohol is a gateway drug? Ban it.

[williatw]

What more proof do you need that alcohol is a gateway drug? Ban it.

And that's the thing with the "gateway drug" argument. The first "drug" most everyone tries would of course be alcohol. Most crack/heroin/cocaine abusers probably smoked pot first (if for no other reason than it is more commonly available), but I would bet their first "drug" expericence by a wide margin would be with alcohol. Hoping the Colorado experience works out well. And as far as regulations go so far I have heard that the sales tax on "medical marijuana" is fairly modest; while the tax on "recreational marijuna" is considerably higher:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/28/us/10-thi ... marijuana/

Retail weed will have a 25% state tax -- plus the usual state sales tax of 2.9% -- making recreational pot one of the most heavily taxed consumer products in Colorado. Some communities are adding even more taxes to the product.

Residents can now buy marijuana like alcohol -- except the cannabis purchase is limited to an ounce, which is substantial enough to cost about $200 or more.

Sure they will eventually put regs on the THC content of pot as well.

[paperburn1]

On the first day of legal weed sales, Gillette said she found retailers selling top-shelf marijuana to recreational users at prices close to $400 per ounce, not including taxes.
For comparison, medical marijuana users, who’ve been able to buy weed from Colorado dispensaries since 2010, are currently paying around $250 an ounce plus taxes, she said.

The state does not impose any pricing structure for pot purveyors, leaving the market open to supply and demand. One dispensary was selling high-quality marijuana on Wednesday at $70 for one-eighth of an ounce — a markup from $25 for the same amount the day before, according to The Associated Press.

[GIThruster]

Most crack/heroin/cocaine abusers probably smoked pot first (if for no other reason than it is more commonly available), but I would bet their first "drug" expericence by a wide margin would be with alcohol.

Yes, but that's a useless observation and a distraction. Alcohol doesn't make people nuts. Cannabis does. Cannabis destroys ambition. It makes them lazy. It makes them sit at hjome and collect welfare, unemployment, medicaid and other state sponsored insanity. It destroys memory. It causes people to miss school. It causes them to drop out of school. It causes them to miss work. It causes them to get fired from work. It causes them to act irrational. It causes them to hallucinate. It causes them to adopt delusions and delusional thinking.

Although <10% of our society uses cannabis, the vast majority of those who commit violent crimes, do so while high on cannabis. Cannabis use is the number one predictor of violent criminal behavior. Almost all children who drop out of high school without graduating are cannabis users. Almost all people who find their way into a psych ward, either voluntarily or involuntarily; are cannabis users. Only cannabis users experience cannabis induced psychosis.

And NONE of these things are true of alcohol. NONE!

Go to a psych ward and ask the folks there, what they think of their patients using. Ask them. Ask a mental health professional what sort of correlation they see between cannabis use and serious psychological illness.

Ignoring all these facts and clouding the issue with irrelevant factoids the way you and simon are doing, is grossly irresponsible behavior.

[williatw]

Alcohol doesn't make people nuts. Cannabis does.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/289848-overview


Alcohol-related psychosis is a secondary psychosis that manifests as prominent hallucinations and delusions occurring in a variety of alcohol-related conditions. For patients with alcohol use disorder, previously known as alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence, psychosis can occur during phases of acute intoxication or withdrawal, with or without delirium tremens.

[paperburn1]

http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/napa-vall ... 2D11820142

There is a difference between abuse delusions and just plain use delusions
“You live and learn,” said Vee. “On our tours, we’re getting a lot of empty nesters that haven’t smoked pot in 20 years. We’ve also had people who have never smoked pot take our tours and had one couple get high and so paranoid that we had to interrupt the tour and take them back to their hotel.”

[williatw]

Although <10% of our society uses cannabis, the vast majority of those who commit violent crimes, do so while high on cannabis. Cannabis use is the number one predictor of violent criminal behavior.

And NONE of these things are true of alcohol. NONE!

http://www.ncadd.org/index.php/learn-ab ... -and-crime


The relationship between alcohol and crimes including domestic abuse and violence, underage drinking, robbery, assault and sexual assault is clearly documented.

FACT: 5.3 million adults − 36% of those under correctional supervision at the time − were drinking at the time of their conviction offense

Excessive drinking leads to criminal behavior:

The US Department of Justice (DOJ) estimated that a majority of criminal offenders were under the influence of alcohol alone when they committed their crimes.

About 3 million violent crimes occur each year in which victims perceive the offender to have been drinking. Crimes include: rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated and simple assault. About two-thirds of violent crimes are characterized as simple assaults.Federal research shows that for the 40% of convicted murderers being held in either jail or State prison, alcohol use was a factor in the homicide.

FACT: Alcohol is a factor in 40% of all violent crimes today

Based on victim reports, alcohol use by the offender was a factor in:
•37% of rapes and sexual assaults
•15% of robberies
•27% of aggravated assaults, and
•25% of simple assaults

Statistics showing correlation between alcohol and crime (from the NCADD Fact Sheet Alcohol and Crime):
•Among violent crimes, the offender is far more likely to have been drinking than under the influence of other drugs, with the exception of robberies, where other drugs are likely to have been used such as alcohol.
•Alcohol is more likely to be a factor in violence, where the attacker and the victim know each other. Two-thirds of victims who were attacked by an intimate (including a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend) reported that alcohol had been involved, and only 31% of victimizations by strangers are alcohol-related.
•Nearly 500,000 incidents between intimates involve offenders who have been drinking; in addition, 118,000 incidents of family violence (excluding spouses) involve alcohol, as do 744,000 incidents among acquaintances.
•1.4 million incidents of alcohol-related violence are committed against strangers.
•Individuals under age 21 were the victims in just over 13% of incidents of alcohol-related violence, and the offenders in nearly 9%.
•70% of alcohol-related incidents of violence occur in the home with greatest frequency at 11:00 pm…..20% of these incidents involve the use of a weapon other than hands, fists or feet.

[GIThruster]

"Marijuana use is a major factor in violent crimes. The National Institute on Marijuana Abuse and Marijuanaism estimates that 95-99% of violent crimes in the United States are linked to the use of marijuana. According to a report from the U.S. Dept. of Justice, that translates to about 100,000,000 marijuana-related violent crimes per year."

http://www.mmyvofficial.org/marijuana-and-violence/

95-99% of violent crimes in the United States are linked to the use of marijuana

And just remember, <10% are using cannabis. So <10% of the population is causing the vast amount of violent crime, and they're all dopers.

[Stubby]

"Marijuana use is a major factor in violent crimes. The National Institute on Marijuana Abuse and Marijuanaism estimates that 95-99% of violent crimes in the United States are linked to the use of marijuana. According to a report from the U.S. Dept. of Justice, that translates to about 100,000,000 marijuana-related violent crimes per year."

http://www.mmyvofficial.org/marijuana-and-violence/

95-99% of violent crimes in the United States are linked to the use of marijuana

And just remember, <10% are using cannabis. So <10% of the population is causing the vast amount of violent crime, and they're all dopers.

Nice website.
Really nice layout.
Too bad nice layout doesn't mean valid. I visited every page in the 'publications' tab after noticing no outside links from your proferred link and not one page of the bold 'publications' provided links to outside sources for their assertions. NOT ONE. NOT A frick ONE.

From their main page
1. DO NOT TOKE Toking marijuana causes immediate death
2. DO NOT INJECT Injecting marijuana causes immediate death
3. DO NOT EAT Eating marijuana causes immediate death

Possible semantics aside. Utter bullshit (except injecting for I have no knowledge). You start the whole anti marijuana thing with such stupid statements, and you wonder why it doesn't go anywhere or why people don't trust their statements

'Science based'

Not saying they are wrong. I can't say they are wrong because they have nothing linked. They have no data.
As it stands even Rossi has provided more evidence for his claims. And Rossi sets a very low bar ffs.

GiThruster, you normally do a much better job backing up your arguments.

[williatw]

Nice website.
Really nice layout.
Too bad nice layout doesn't mean valid. I visited every page in the 'publications' tab after noticing no outside links from your proferred link and not one page of the bold 'publications' provided links to outside sources for their assertions. NOT ONE. NOT A frick ONE.

From their main page
1. DO NOT TOKE Toking marijuana causes immediate death
2. DO NOT INJECT Injecting marijuana causes immediate death
3. DO NOT EAT Eating marijuana causes immediate death

Possible semantics aside. Utter bullshit (except injecting for I have no knowledge). You start the whole anti marijuana thing with such stupid statements, and you wonder why it doesn't go anywhere or why people don't trust their statements

'Science based'

Not saying they are wrong. I can't say they are wrong because they have nothing linked. They have no data.
As it stands even Rossi has provided more evidence for his claims. And Rossi sets a very low bar ffs.

GiThruster, you normally do a much better job backing up your arguments.

From the link:

We Are The Bringers Of Peace
Welcome to the official website for MMYV (Marijuana MAKES You Violent).
We are a community based organization that aims to raise awareness that marijuana causes violence. We are a science based, secular, apolitical group. We are seekers of peace and truth. Don’t believe the lies put out by the media that marijuana addicts are just harmless peaceful hippies. Anyone who consumes marijuana becomes violently enraged and is capable of committing atrocious acts of violence. The toxins in the marijuana destroy the hypothalamus and amygdala, all centers of reason and rationality disappear from the brain

Yeah that sounds like an unbiased source....but seriously, alcohol doesn't make people crazy?! I mean come on, to claim that alcohol the one drug that in most of our collective personal experience we know makes people violent (domestic or otherwise), crazy, etc.?! What was GIThruster thinking?

[GIThruster]

Yeah that sounds like an unbiased source....but seriously, alcohol doesn't make people crazy?! I mean come on, to claim that alcohol the one drug that in most of our collective personal experience we know makes people violent (domestic or otherwise), crazy, etc.?! What was GIThruster thinking?

Don't put words in my mouth. I've never said alcohol doesn't make people violent. Why are you pretending I've said something I have not said? Again?

I think though, that the benefits of alcohol outweigh the costs. That's a complex and different argument and no matter your finding with alcohol, it does not come to the issue of cannabis use.

I think Stubby is right above and the lack of sourcing does look fishy. Stubby should therefore write those folks and ask for the sources they quote, the CDC and the like. If you want to whine about the lack of links, you should investigate.

But I am agreeing, it does look fishy. Normally when someone quotes CDC, they provide the link. Not seeing it.

[ladajo]

I think the issue with alcohol is more so that it reduces self control while drunk. It reduces inhibitions. But then that passes when you are sober.

The issue with drugs, including pot, is the lasting effect and damage. You don't have to be smoking pot to have the paranoia developed from previous use. You can be "down" and still have it.

The effects of alcohol to my knowledge are mostly dependant on being drinking at the time. Granted, there is documentation for long term heavy use brain and body damage, but that takes so effort, and most drinkers of that sort or inclination don't make it that far, they tend to die or quit first.

I think the other thing to point out here is that violent crime is associated with both. And in many cases, it is a dual abuse issue. Pot smokers like to mix. Number one mizer is drinking, number two mixer is non-prescription meds. The reason for mixing is to amplify the effect. Their bodies crave more high. And the drugs do the thinking for them.

Point is, alcohol only gets so potent. 100% is 100%. Drugs have no limit on that end. Unless you consider OD death a limit. You really have to work at death by alcohol poisoning, drugs on the other hand, you can have a one hit death. That is pretty easy. And with purity and cutting agents (and enhancer cuts) on the rise, it is becoming more likely that you will kill yourself taking drugs. The statistics (as I have posted) support that as well.

Ironically, Alcohol use is on a down trend, especially in the younger crowd. But drugs are on an up trend, most thinking is that it is due to acceptability perceptions. Score one for the pro-drug crowd marketing effort.

It is a historical fact that as developed societies have accepted non-core value family unit behaviours into their culture, not long after, the society and culture implodes and becomes "historical". You can talk a walk through history and find many examples. Deviant behaviour (ie. non-life and species progressing behaviours), like homosexuality and drugs are at the top of the example chain. The collapse is usually presaged by a violent attempt to swing excessively back to core non-deviant behaviours that more or less manifests in a civil or civil/external war which in-turn destroys said culture. Kind of like a too late last gasp.
I am certainly no conservative when it comes to personal liberties. The thing I struggle with is where to draw the line. For example, if you want to practice homosexuality on your own terms behind your closed doors, I more or less don't care. But when you want to parade it in front of my children as acceptable behaviour, there I tend to draw the line. Drugs I feel the same way. If you want to go off and end your bad genes, then Darwin salutes you. But DO NOT try to convince others, especially children that your behaviour is acceptable. These things in my mind tear apart the very fibers and fabric of our society by having our kids grow uinto adulthood confused about what is right and wrong. Where and when have we decided to lose sight of "Do no harm to others"? Telling my children that doing drugs is okay is wrong, and does them harm. They have not been around the block enough to figure it out on their own, that is part of them being children. They want to trust and believe in adults to demonstrate stable and healthy behaviours that will embed in them future self-productive behaviours and aide in a happy, long and healthy life.
It is no accident in my mind that broken homes produce broken people. Our children are the product of the environment they experience while developing into adults. Nurture plays a large part of how they turn out. Are we that stupid that we will all stand by and let others define our children's futures for them with acceptability of deviant behaviours constantly paraded in front of them? One of my own favorite examples is how when my kids were little I thought Disney Channel to be safe. Then I started paying attention, and determined quickly it was not safe at all. Disney shows promoted all sorts of bad behaviours and norms as acceptable. I banned it. Later, when my daughter was older, and better prepared to understand. We watched some Disney together. I asked her some questions about what she thought in regard to the behaviours demonstrated by characters in the shows. She quickly understood the extreme risk and stupidity of their actions that she formerly had thought funny and intelligent, and entirely appropriate. Things like lying to parents about where and what they were doing. About driving underage, running away, defiance, anger management, revenge, pettiness, greed, etc. All in the name of "coolness".

Okay, semi-rant over. One last point. I really do hope that the "drug experiment" in WA an CO comes to a conclusion soon. I already see issues with it, and unfortunately, the $$$ interest taking advantage of the addictions will propagate the experiment as long as possible. And 20 years from now, the tax payers are going to be holding the bag for all those folks that will be seeking social assistance to get un-addicted, life reconstructed, etc. Just like it happened in the drug experiments in Europe. They are holding the bag now, and it bankrupted some of them.

We can not afford more forced "wealth redistribution". Last time I checked that was called communism and socialism. And we have plenty of examples on how well that works out.

Beh.

[Stubby]

Yeah that sounds like an unbiased source....but seriously, alcohol doesn't make people crazy?! I mean come on, to claim that alcohol the one drug that in most of our collective personal experience we know makes people violent (domestic or otherwise), crazy, etc.?! What was GIThruster thinking?

Don't put words in my mouth. I've never said alcohol doesn't make people violent. Why are you pretending I've said something I have not said? Again?

I think though, that the benefits of alcohol outweigh the costs. That's a complex and different argument and no matter your finding with alcohol, it does not come to the issue of cannabis use.

I think Stubby is right above and the lack of sourcing does look fishy. Stubby should therefore write those folks and ask for the sources they quote, the CDC and the like. If you want to whine about the lack of links, you should investigate.

But I am agreeing, it does look fishy. Normally when someone quotes CDC, they provide the link. Not seeing it.

I actually am thinking that it is your own site. Your views are so closely aligned with theirs...
And no I won't be asking for links. Your choice to use the website as 'evidence'. You can either recant or get the links yourself.
Failure to do either makes YOU look fishy.
Asking your opponents to provide the links is tantamount to shifting the burden.

[williatw]

Gov. Cuomo to allow limited use of medical marijuana in New York
Cuomo is set to announce an executive action that would allow 20 hospitals around the state to prescribe marijuana to people with cancer, glaucoma or other diseases that meet certain standards.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... -1.1566683

Gov. Cuomo is set to announce an executive action this week that would allow the limited use of medical marijuana, sources told the Daily News, marking a stark about-face for Cuomo, who has long resisted calls to legalize pot for the chronically ill.

[GIThruster]

I suppose with POTUS taking uni;lateral actions in defiance of the Constitution, modifying laws on a whim and without authority, it was only a matter of time before the same abuse moved down to the states. So Cuomo doesn't need the legislature anymore. And the ACLU will be silent.

Governors and Presidents do not get to make law by fiat. When the press lets them get away with this, and no one intervenes, we are near the end of our democracy. Executive Actions only affect executive agencies. They are not a means of making law, but of policy. Instructing hospitals, which are not executive agencies, not even government agencies, to do anything, especially to violate the law, is completely lawless activity.