Climate II

[choff]

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1bv2.html

THE GREENLAND DUALITY II
EASTWARD TO GREENLAND AND VINLAND
In view of the complexities associated with the Greenland Duality it may be useful to consider next the implications of a possible eastern route to "Greenland" and the Pacific Northwest. In short, instead of voyaging westwards through the Northwest Passage, consider now an alternative passage from Norway that is largely and essentially an "overland" trip to the east, i.e.,


A. Jón Jóhannessen
"A brief description of the world preserved in a manuscript from about 1300 (A.M. 736 I, 41o) contains the following paragraph:


To the north of Norway lies Finnmark (Lapland); from there the land sweeps north-east and east to Bjarmaland (Permia), which renders
tribute to the king of Russia. From Permia there is uninhabited land stretching all the way to the north until Greenland begins. To the
south of Greenland lies Helluland and Markland; and from there it is not far to Vinland, which some people think extends from Africa . . .33


Different versions of this geographic sketch are contained in a few other manuscripts. The date of the original version is not known, but the geographic concepts it reflects can be traced back to the Commonwealth Period. The description of a circular and unbroken land mass extending from Bjarmaland (Permia) to Greenland, and south from there to Africa, is the chief characteristic of these accounts. The earliest source in which this feature may be quite clearly detected is Historia Norwegiae, and as a whole its underlying concept is based on amazingly extensive knowledge of geography, even though in places it is tinged with superstition. The idea of lands extending from Greenland to Russia may imply previously obtained information about Spitsbergen and Novaja Zemlja. The southern edge of the polar icefield is only a short distance away from these lands and, in part, may have given rise to the idea of a continuous land mass in these regions. 33 Grønlands historiske Mindesmaerker. III, pp. 216-218; Alfraeði Islenzk. I, p. 12.
(Jón Jóhannessen, Íslendinga Saga: A History of the Old Icelandic Commonwealth. Trans. Harald Bessason, University of Manitoba Press, Winnipeg 1974:104-5; emphases supplied).


B. Arthur Middleton Reeves
"Somewhat similar in character to the above notices is the brief reference written in the vellum fragment contained in AM. 764, 4to.
This fragment comprises a so-called ' totius orbis brevis descriptio,' written probably about the year 1400. Upon the second page of this ' brief description' is the passage:



' From Biarmaland uninhabited regions extend from the north, until Greenland joins them.
South from Greenland lies Helluland, then Markland. Thence it is not far to Wineland....'


(Arthur Middleton Reeves, The Finding of Wineland the Good: The History of the Icelandic Discovery of America. Burt Franklin, New York 1895: 17; emphases supplied)







MAP 1e. EASTWARDS TO GREENLAND AND VINLAND



In spite of uncertainities concerning Norse geographical knowledge during the period in question Jóhannessen's final observations may reasonably be extended eastwards below Novaya Zemlya given that the route from Norway is initially north to "Finnmark," after which "the land sweeps north-east to "Bjarmaland" (Permia), which renders tribute to the king of Russia." Moreover, we are told next that from this region onwards: "there is uninhabited land all the way north until Greenland begins," whereas the Reeves' variant states "uninhabited regions extend from the north until Greenland joins them."
But either way, after we reach "Greenland" we find ourselves--if not on familiar ground per se--then at least on a familiar route described by familiar phrases, for Nicholas, Abbot of Thingeyre's:


"South of Greenland lies Helluland, next lies Markland, and from there it is not a great distance to Vinland the Good"


is clearly echoed in the translations provided above by Jóhannessen and Reeves, i.e.,


A. Jón Jóhannessen: "To the south of Greenland lies Helluland and Markland; and from there it is not far to Vinland."
B. Arthur Middleton Reeves: "South from Greenland lies Helluland, then Markland. Thence it is not far to Wineland."


In other words, proceeding northwards from Norway, then basically eastwards via Finland and Russia, the "overland" route (shown on Map 1e adjacent to the Arctic Circle for simplicity) readily terminates at the Bering Straits. Once across the latter and on to the "Western Greenland" region (Icy Bay--Hanes Alaska, perhaps) we again reach the starting point for the voyages south to Helluland, Markland and Vinland. Thus, (theoretically at least) we have "arrived" in the Pacific Northwest en route to the same western Viking lands as before, but this time from the east.

I must apologize in my last posting for neglecting to also mention the climate models suck.

[Schneibster]

So what's all this supposed to prove again?

[Stubby]

Trying to find where they explicit say that the Vikings travel the Arctic ocean in boats from Norway eastwards to Greenland through open water during the MWP???
It seems to say they went overland to Alaska.


Added missing picture 1e.

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1bv2.html


MAP 1c. THE GREENLAND DUALITY (this was added to show where Helluland, Markland and Vinland are located)

THE GREENLAND DUALITY II
EASTWARD TO GREENLAND AND VINLAND
In view of the complexities associated with the Greenland Duality it may be useful to consider next the implications of a possible eastern route to "Greenland" and the Pacific Northwest. In short, instead of voyaging westwards through the Northwest Passage, consider now an alternative passage from Norway that is largely and essentially an "overland" trip to the east, i.e.,


A. Jón Jóhannessen
"A brief description of the world preserved in a manuscript from about 1300 (A.M. 736 I, 41o) contains the following paragraph:


To the north of Norway lies Finnmark (Lapland); from there the land sweeps north-east and east to Bjarmaland (Permia), which renders
tribute to the king of Russia. From Permia there is uninhabited land stretching all the way to the north until Greenland begins. To the
south of Greenland lies Helluland and Markland; and from there it is not far to Vinland, which some people think extends from Africa . . .33


Different versions of this geographic sketch are contained in a few other manuscripts. The date of the original version is not known, but the geographic concepts it reflects can be traced back to the Commonwealth Period. The description of a circular and unbroken land mass extending from Bjarmaland (Permia) to Greenland, and south from there to Africa, is the chief characteristic of these accounts. The earliest source in which this feature may be quite clearly detected is Historia Norwegiae, and as a whole its underlying concept is based on amazingly extensive knowledge of geography, even though in places it is tinged with superstition. The idea of lands extending from Greenland to Russia may imply previously obtained information about Spitsbergen and Novaja Zemlja. The southern edge of the polar icefield is only a short distance away from these lands and, in part, may have given rise to the idea of a continuous land mass in these regions. 33 Grønlands historiske Mindesmaerker. III, pp. 216-218; Alfraeði Islenzk. I, p. 12.
(Jón Jóhannessen, Íslendinga Saga: A History of the Old Icelandic Commonwealth. Trans. Harald Bessason, University of Manitoba Press, Winnipeg 1974:104-5; emphases supplied).


B. Arthur Middleton Reeves
"Somewhat similar in character to the above notices is the brief reference written in the vellum fragment contained in AM. 764, 4to.
This fragment comprises a so-called ' totius orbis brevis descriptio,' written probably about the year 1400. Upon the second page of this ' brief description' is the passage:



' From Biarmaland uninhabited regions extend from the north, until Greenland joins them.
South from Greenland lies Helluland, then Markland. Thence it is not far to Wineland....'


(Arthur Middleton Reeves, The Finding of Wineland the Good: The History of the Icelandic Discovery of America. Burt Franklin, New York 1895: 17; emphases supplied)

MAP 1e. EASTWARDS TO GREENLAND AND VINLAND



In spite of uncertainities concerning Norse geographical knowledge during the period in question Jóhannessen's final observations may reasonably be extended eastwards below Novaya Zemlya given that the route from Norway is initially north to "Finnmark," after which "the land sweeps north-east to "Bjarmaland" (Permia), which renders tribute to the king of Russia." Moreover, we are told next that from this region onwards: "there is uninhabited land all the way north until Greenland begins," whereas the Reeves' variant states "uninhabited regions extend from the north until Greenland joins them."
But either way, after we reach "Greenland" we find ourselves--if not on familiar ground per se--then at least on a familiar route described by familiar phrases, for Nicholas, Abbot of Thingeyre's:


"South of Greenland lies Helluland, next lies Markland, and from there it is not a great distance to Vinland the Good"


is clearly echoed in the translations provided above by Jóhannessen and Reeves, i.e.,


A. Jón Jóhannessen: "To the south of Greenland lies Helluland and Markland; and from there it is not far to Vinland."
B. Arthur Middleton Reeves: "South from Greenland lies Helluland, then Markland. Thence it is not far to Wineland."


In other words, proceeding northwards from Norway, then basically eastwards via Finland and Russia, the "overland" route (shown on Map 1e adjacent to the Arctic Circle for simplicity) readily terminates at the Bering Straits. Once across the latter and on to the "Western Greenland" region (Icy Bay--Hanes Alaska, perhaps) we again reach the starting point for the voyages south to Helluland, Markland and Vinland. Thus, (theoretically at least) we have "arrived" in the Pacific Northwest en route to the same western Viking lands as before, but this time from the east.

I must apologize in my last posting for neglecting to also mention the climate models suck.[ ]

[Schneibster]

There's a theory that the Clovis people came across the Arctic on solid ice that existed at the beginning of the last glaciation, from Europe. It's very controversial though, and predates what you're talking about by twenty thousand years or so.

[choff]

At the very least, what it demostrates is that 14th century vikings understood they could reach Greenland by travelling east. They couldn't possess that knowledge unless they had some understanding of the geography. Further, given they almost exclusively travelled by ship, and the given the difficulties of traversing the route by land, they would have used longboats. The whole article details trade with Inuit people throughout what was known to them as Markland, Helluland and Vinland.

The climate models still suck badly.

[Schneibster]

The climate models still suck badly.

Not as bad as no models would.

Also, "suck" is a very subjective state. For you I'm pretty sure "suck" means "makes you believe things you don't want to believe."

[GIThruster]

The climate models still suck badly.

Certainly the single most distinguishing element of climatology is that despite the fantastical funding and huge numbers of graduate degrees offered, there is a zero success rate at any sort of prediction. Any science with such a failure rate and so much bogus data spread around would certainly be the laughing stock of the planet and rightly claim the preeminent place as pseudoscientific nonsense.

But. . .this is what happens when you mix science with politics.

[Schneibster]

The climate models still suck badly.

Certainly the single most distinguishing element of climatology is that despite the fantastical funding and huge numbers of graduate degrees offered, there is a zero success rate at any sort of prediction.

It's still the hottest decade on record, and the latest IPCC makes many predictions and claims certainty in excess of 95%, sufficient to convict a man of murder and put him to death.

Any science with such a failure rate and so much bogus data spread around would certainly be the laughing stock of the planet and rightly claim the preeminent place as pseudoscientific nonsense.

Handwaving. I repeat, the certainty is 95%.

But. . .this is what happens when you mix science with politics.

No, what you get when you mix politics with science is the politicians keep lying and the scientists get mad.

[choff]

The Norse saga's continue to have a higher rate of predictability and trustworthyness than the very best of the climate models.

The climate models suck in the extreme.

[Schneibster]

Not on Earth.

On Earth they're 95% accurate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/scien ... .html?_r=0

Take it easy on the OK?

[Stubby]

At the very least, what it demostrates is that 14th century vikings understood they could reach Greenland by travelling east. They couldn't possess that knowledge unless they had some understanding of the geography. Further, given they almost exclusively travelled by ship, and the given the difficulties of traversing the route by land, they would have used longboats. The whole article details trade with Inuit people throughout what was known to them as Markland, Helluland and Vinland.

The climate models still suck badly.

Making a lot of assumptions Mr CHoff.
The article you cited seems to indicate that the eastern route to 'Greenland' actually was a route to BC, Canada.

[choff]

Straight into my backyard I admit, little matter, it's the authors pet theory. The important thing is that 14th century Norwegians understood the that heading east along the N. Siberia coast would bring them to the west coast of Greenland, something they couldn't know without a basic understanding of arctic geography.

[Schneibster]

Straight into my backyard I admit, little matter, it's the authors pet theory. The important thing is that 14th century Norwegians understood the that heading east along the N. Siberia coast would bring them to the west coast of Greenland, something they couldn't know without a basic understanding of arctic geography.

Have you seen 14th century maps?

Ever?

It doesn't sound like it.

[choff]

Vikings didn't use maps, the descriptions are from oral traditions, very last chance, what's the PCR.

[Schneibster]

I am resisting an unbelievable compulsion to post something incredibly rude.

"Threaten this" comes to mind.