At this point kicking me off looks like a cowardly move.

[Schneibster]

We had a dustbowl during the 30's as well, it was called the Palliser Triangle.

Huh, never heard of it.

Interesting development, deserts are in retreat worldwide, you can blame the CO2.

Except for, you know, the Sahara, which is why, you know, there's fighting going on at the southern edge of it. Ever hear of the "Janjaweed?"

ETA: Also, I just searched on it and you're full of crap again. There's no worldwide retreat of deserts. @MSimon, here we are again. That's two today. I'm going to start keeping count.

There was an interesting TED talk someone posted about how cattle herds prevent/reverse soil erosion, have to see if I can find it when I have more time.

As a matter of fact since the grasslands evolved to be grazed and fertilized by bison I have little doubt you're at least partially right. OTOH don't forget to leave room for amber waves of grain.

[choff]

In reference to the Palliser Triangle and desert retreat.


http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/drought.html

http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/e ... rought.htm


http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-art ... al-warming


We've had the pine beetles and spruce bud worm for quite a while now, they thrive on old growth, the kind of trees that used to be cut before conservationists put a stop to it.

[Schneibster]

In reference to the Palliser Triangle and desert retreat.

http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/drought.html

http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/e ... rought.htm

Thanks.

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-art ... al-warming

We've had the pine beetles and spruce bud worm for quite a while now, they thrive on old growth, the kind of trees that used to be cut before conservationists put a stop to it.

They tried that one on me in Washingtoon, too. I just chuckled, because the Ag guys have all told them the score. They know the truth but they keep trying to sell their BS.

My usual response was to skootch up next to them and go, "You know, the spotted owls eat pine beetle."

And then hoot on the way out the door. OTOH I have a nasty sense of humor. I still send n00bs snipe hunting and to the hardware store for a left-handed monkey wrench.

90% of the forest I was looking at was old growth. But it was even worse in Oregon- which is new growth. And it doesn't account for the gypsy moth down here. You want to keep in mind somewhere between half and thirty percent, depending on who you read and on the year, of the fresh produce eaten in the US comes from within ten miles of where I live. And we already have a water problem, and it's getting worse.

[Stubby]

If you are going to call someone a liar, could you be more specific about what the lie is and provide some evidence to back it up?
Otherwise you are simply making unfounded assertions, you already know what that feels like from theists.

Also people sometimes just have wrong information, so being in someone's face Lee Ermey-style might not be necessary.

V6B 6G3

[Schneibster]

If you are going to call someone a liar, could you be more specific about what the lie is and provide some evidence to back it up?
Otherwise you are simply making unfounded assertions, you already know what that feels like from theists.

Also people sometimes just have wrong information, so being in someone's face Lee Ermey-style might not be necessary.

If you're talking about the Heartland Institute, I believe I already published SourceWatch. Here's their article: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... _Institute
Here's the one from DeSmogBlog, which I have also already linked here: http://www.desmogblog.com/heartland-ins ... al-machine
This isn't even a deception, it's a cottage industry. Like Amway. The oil companies are paying baksheesh as they see it to the US government to be allowed to continue to pollute the commons without paying.

You have but to ask, and I will provide all the evidence you can use. Always. Otherwise I don't claim it. Occasionally I make a mistake; usually through a single source, followed by a personal misunderstanding. I flatter myself you can convince me of it before I make a complete fool of myself. You are welcome to keep me honest; and I mean really. Please do keep it up. If you consider this good behavior I am willing to try to get better. But I still won't promise not to make fun of idiots. Sorry. I'm also not available to lie to fools who believe stupid propaganda that they're really OK. They're stupid, and they should learn from it, like I did. It's OK to be wrong; what's not OK is to deny it.

ETA: BTW, in case I was not clear: the Heartland Institute is a completely captive organization of the energy companies dedicated to publishing false claims to try to discredit global warming. No article they publish should ever be trusted. If they said the Sun comes up in the morning I'd check. They lie like a rug. That is all.

Moving right along, WRT pine beetle, they invade junk pine as well as old growth. In fact they like tender shoots. They have experience with this in Oregon. Google is. If you claim you can't find any I'll demonstrate my superior search skills. You could also drive up 5 to Seattle several times like I did. It's a lot clearer if you see it for yourself. Better yet you could go on several driving vacations in Washington while you were living in the Seattle metro area like I did. On back roads, because that was what I wanted. They haven't ruined the fishing yet, but the forest is hosed.

It's not as bad as Yellowstone yet, but it's getting there. It's nowhere near as bad as Yosemite. And it's worse than Ventana. I can't compare it to the Grand Canyon; we only went to the tourist parts on the South Rim. We had our own car, and went on the tram to each end to save gas and hassle. They were pretty good, I got pictures everywhere, and even a little time to fool around each place. But I never went down into it or to the North Rim. If I'd had more time...

But back to the Pacific Northwest, I can see what's happened since I was a kid in the '60s and now. When I was a teenager in the '70s I thought we could fix it, and I went to help, but by the '80s I'd done all I could and had to make my way. When I went back in the '00s I was dismayed beyond my ability to communicate clearly. Shocked doesn't cover it. I still can't believe it and I've been out of there almost five years. I'm still depressed when I think about it.

So since I didn't leave anything I assume I've dealt with your concern that I didn't provide proof of what I said. Specifically.

And last but not least people with misunderstandings aren't pugnacious. So stop with the propaganda. I have no intention of tolerating fools. They waste everyone's time. If you think I'm wrong in a statement I made request data to support. But look first to see if I already posted it; it's only polite.

[choff]

How could you live so close to Canada and not know we grow wheat?

Forgot to mention that with the Kerrick Process electricity cogeneration is part of the package. The big reason it wasn't adopted is because industry had just cornered the limited supply of coking coal and this inventor comes along with a cheap coversion for ordinary coal to high grade coke.

The Barred owl eats the Spotted owl, and it's food, recovery relies more on shooting the Barred owl than habitat protection.

Before the white man came indians used to routinely start forest fires as a way to create meadows, very important for maintaining food for game herds. Clear cuts mimicked the effect, now that large sections of forest are off limits undergrowth restricts animal movement, forcing them into other available open grazing areas, populated by humans, this also attracts predators. Animals tend to thrive more on the edges than the deep woods.

Failure to remove undergrowth also makes for large numbers of sick trees where smaller numbers of healthy trees once stood, now vulnerable to pests, disease, and fires. The forests are not so much natural and the product of human influence going back to first Indian settlement.

There's plenty of other sites describing how CO2 is causing desert retreat world wide, I seriously doubt every last one is tied to big oil.

You might want to look up the Heidelberg Appeal.

[Schneibster]

How could you live so close to Canada and not know we grow wheat?

Sigh

Try not to be as transparent as a five-year-old.

I didn't say Canada doesn't grow wheat. The next two were lies too. Sorry, tell the truth or forget it. If all you've got is rhetorical tricks you're obviously lying.

[choff]

I'm confused, exactly which ones are you declaring to be lies.

[Schneibster]

I'm confused, exactly which ones are you declaring to be lies.

Let's start with, I never said Canada doesn't grow wheat.

You're making stuff up.

See, this is why I never answer past the first lie: you'll tie me up forever if you can. If you start with a lie I'll only answer the lie. If you don't like it don't lie. It saves lots of time you see. You write fifteen time-wasting lies; I only bother with the first one. See how that works? Please don't be so naive as to ask me to "prove" I didn't say Canada doesn't grow wheat. You claim it you prove it. Welcome to the 'Net n00b. Now stop wasting everyone's time. And don't bother trotting out more lies; I'll only answer one per post and I'm getting more and more impatient. When I get frustrated enough I'll stop reading anything you post at all like I have several others. Obviously I thought you had something to say but I'm rapidly losing interest.

[choff]

If the temperature rises 3C we will be growing wheat in Canada not the US.

How much?

You didn't answer my question: how much?

If you know that Canada grows wheat, you don't need to ask how much as if to imply total disbelief or the conviction it's some irrelevant quantity. Anyone else on planet earth will tell you I'm not lying when I say the impression from your statement is complete ignorance on your part that Canada grows wheat. Don't think so, get a few hundred people to read the complete dialog and have a vote.

[GIThruster]

Good luck with that. No one with any common sense is going to read the other part of the dialog. You should have learned better by now.

[Schneibster]

If you know that Canada grows wheat, you don't need to ask how much as if to imply total disbelief or the conviction it's some irrelevant quantity. Anyone else on planet earth will tell you I'm not lying when I say the impression from your statement is complete ignorance on your part that Canada grows wheat. Don't think so, get a few hundred people to read the complete dialog and have a vote.

You can't quote it or you would.

You're lying again.

Nice try skippy.

[choff]

Well then, if your going to go around calling people liars purely on technicalities good luck trying to sell them on anything else. Your will do more damage to any convictions you support than your opponents.

[Schneibster]

Well then, if your going to go around calling people liars purely on technicalities good luck trying to sell them on anything else. Your will do more damage to any convictions you support than your opponents.

It's not a technicality. You're telling the truth or you're not, and if you're not telling the truth about what I said, then you're making up straw men. This is a known logical flaw: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I seriously doubt you actually don't know this. I'm sure you've at minimum been told this repeatedly. I strongly suspect you know why it's true, as well. I furthermore suspect you know precisely how insulting it is to claim I said something I did not, and have done it on purpose. What you think it will accomplish other than to prove you're harassing me deliberately I have no idea. Good luck with that.

I suppose if you want to admit you're that stupid you can go ahead. In that case I suggest you familiarize yourself with these fallacies and before every time you post, you check each one of them to make sure you're not doing it.

They taught me this when I was fifteen years old. I'm just sayin'. It was in the US. In California. In the Santa Clara Valley. This wasn't anything unusual. Didn't they teach you this stuff? These are not "technicalities." They're the difference between true and false. This is how one thinks. I'm starting to think you can't.

And here's the thing: A Straw Man fallacy is a lie about what someone said. It's the worst kind of dishonesty. It's also the most revealing type of cowardice: you dare not admit the truth, not even in the mouth of another, not even to lie about it. You will not do this again or I will not answer you again. We're getting down to brass tacks now.

[Schneibster]

Still waiting for the quote, skippy.

Last chance.

Serious people, who are worth talking to, don't make stories up about what people said.

One life one arrow.