We Only Want What's Best For You

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Jccarlton
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We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby Jccarlton » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:50 pm

It's for your own good:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... od/?page=1
The essence of coercive totaltarianism. This is straight Orwelianism, right from the horses mouth.
And it keeps getting better:
http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/16772/
And an excerpt from the book reviewed:
http://www.cambridge.org/servlet/file/s ... xcerpt.pdf

GIThruster
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby GIThruster » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:18 pm

Yes, we will certainly see a lot more of the invasive tinkering in the future. When people pay their own health care costs, there is no group pressure to manipulate individuals since poor health choices affect only the person making them. Just as John Stuart Mill argued in On Liberty, government has no right to pressure people on decisions that affect only themselves.

However, we're now entering a new age, where when 400 lb. Tommy pours himself a 32 oz. Dr. Pepper and all 7 kajillion calories that goes along with so much corn syrup, he is moving his diabetes problems onto my wallet. Obesity causes a vast number of troubles that will likley be calculated in hundreds of billions once the new health care system is operating. So we should expect more public service announcements, more social stigmas attached just as with tobacco use. I think NYC is already limiting how much fat and salt can be on a plate? I'm sure theres something they were already banning, yes?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:25 am

They can make anything they want to into crimes by amping up the hysteria. Alcohol was once legal, then illegal, now legal again.

There are others that have not quite gone full circle. Cannabis was legal before 1937. It is now illegal but is well on its way to gaining legal status again.

The opiates, made illegal in 1914, are at the middle of the circle. Still illegal with legalization not yet in view.

I expect that when you can engineer a yeast culture to produce opiates - or any thing else you want - the fanatics will give up their mad desires to control what an individual does with his own body. Especially given the fact that opiate analogs diverted from the legal market now account for most of our opiate problems. We are compensated for that by the fact that people with long term intractable pain are undeserved because of fear of opiates. Demand creates supply. If the price is right.

And it is not just drugs. Mass shootings are on the decline. And yet all it takes is 20 dead middle class children in one day in one place and the anti-gun folks (in cahoots with governments that prefer disarmed citizens) are on the move. No one cares about ghetto kids killed one or two at a time every day in prohibition created gang warfare.

I guess Bloomberg figured that if drug prohibition is politically viable why not sweet drinks? Or guns. It all stems from the same impulse.

I think the fundamental problem is that we have a population that is Progressive at a fundamental level. It believes in government solutions for a host of problems. What we call the left has faith in government to solve one set of problems. On the right there is faith in solutions for a different set. But the faith is more or less the same. Kind of like Catholics vs Protestants. What ever happened to Reagan? "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem."

But I'm probably way overestimating the value of reason.
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MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:47 am

I just read the beginning of the book excerpt. Breathtaking. But the current population in America is ripe for such a totalitarian government. And it is happening. The left enacts its control impulses and the right when it gets in doesn't repeal them. It enacts its own control impulses in response. As if men with guns and authority are the solution to every problem.

There is a quote I like from this:

Drug War History

Let me conclude, and again this is my prediction -- I will tell you I don't think it is subject to opinion. Just look at it. Just take a look at what has happened now and what will happen. I will tell you how inexorable it is. If we get together here in the year 2005, I will bet you that it is as likely as not that the possession of marijuana may not be criminal in this state. But the manufacture, sale, and possession of tobacco will be, and why? Because we love this idea of prohibitions, we can't live without them. They are our very favorite thing because we know how to solve difficult, social, economic, and medical problems -- a new criminal law with harsher penalties in every category for everybody.

==

Until that love is given up totally by both major parties we are screwed. Take Menken to heart

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

You know how we avoid that? "What my party fears is REAL. What the other party fears is imaginary."

Nice country while it lasted.
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MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:54 am

We are ruled by coalitions of fears.
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MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:12 am

From:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/mar/07/its-your-own-good/?page=1

Jon Stewart is a comedian, but he was hardly amused. A representative remark from one of his commentaries: “No!…I love this idea you have of banning sodas larger than 16 ounces. It combines the draconian government overreach people love with the probable lack of results they expect.”
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:23 am

From the Amazon review:

Against Autonomy: Justifying Coercive Paternalism

Sarah Conly rejects the idea of autonomy as inviolable and argues that laws that enforce what is good for the individual's well-being, or hinder what is bad, are morally justified. Of interest to students and researchers of political philosophy, political theory and philosophy of law.

=====
From another review:

For some final, powerful examples of Conly's argument at work in the real world, just read the very first sentence of her book, which explains the problems a paternalistic government could help us to solve: "We are too fat, we are too much in debt, and we save too little for the future."

See? Too much debt! No savings for the future!

We individuals and societies are reckless, but government would never behave like that.
=====

The question is: can government be sure that what is bad for you may not be good for me?

For instance: endocannabinoid system is pervasive in the body. Has cannabis prohibition hurt those with problems in their endocannabinoid system? To be sure. Both by retarding research and preventing medical use of cannabis.

Here is something I sent my Rep. yesterday:

Cosponsor H.R. 689 and H.R. 784

Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept - heal the sick.

The endocannabinoid system is a major regulator in the body implicated in almost all diseases including cancer. There are patients who can't wait. Please help.

===================

What most people caught up in the political dichotomy of today fail to get is that the left and the right both believe they favor liberty. And how is that justified by each side? "My fears are real, yours are imaginary."

Once upon a time in the West we countered the fear problem with faith in God. That has given way to faith in Rome (government). We used to wish to be ruled by the "holy spirit" as it moved us individually. Now we want to be ruled by rules developed remotely. The more remote the rules and the more immediate the enforcment the better.

We in fact don't have a government problem. We have a spiritual problem. A lack of trust in God. There was a guy 2,000 years ago who expounded on the problem. His current day followers appear to have missed the message. They prefer to act in the very way he railed against. "Stone her" is their rallying cry. Well maybe not to the point of death. Just a very long stretch in stir. Kinder and gentler.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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Jccarlton
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby Jccarlton » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:00 pm

Jccarlton wrote:It's for your own good:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... od/?page=1
The essence of coercive totaltarianism. This is straight Orwelianism, right from the horses mouth.
And it keeps getting better:
http://www.samizdata.net/2013/02/16772/
And an excerpt from the book reviewed:
http://www.cambridge.org/servlet/file/s ... xcerpt.pdf

It just keeps getting better:
http://page99test.blogspot.com/2012/12/ ... onomy.html

Jccarlton
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby Jccarlton » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 am

More stuff from msimon's post at classical values:
http://classicalvalues.com/2013/02/we-are-ruled/

Jccarlton
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You: Our mandarins

Postby Jccarlton » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:20 am

A class of people that know everything there is to know except how it actually works:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... arins.html
The problem with the people running things all coming from the same places and mindsets is that they have only one toolbox. When what needs to be done is outside that toolbox the system is screwed.

Jccarlton
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby Jccarlton » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:13 am

Another problem is that even our nominal oppostion is drinking the same Kool-aid and working from the same tool kit, the one that's broken:
http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/201 ... more-27448
When Coolidge was president he could at least rely on the more conservative Taft Republicans who still remembered how to do things. A century of monolithic viewpoints of view in our education establishment and the diliberate suppression of any point of view in opposition to their own by Progressives has made it far more difficult to achieve the kind of change we need. I think that's starting to change.

MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:30 am

Jccarlton wrote:Another problem is that even our nominal oppostion is drinking the same Kool-aid and working from the same tool kit, the one that's broken:
http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/201 ... more-27448
When Coolidge was president he could at least rely on the more conservative Taft Republicans who still remembered how to do things. A century of monolithic viewpoints of view in our education establishment and the diliberate suppression of any point of view in opposition to their own by Progressives has made it far more difficult to achieve the kind of change we need. I think that's starting to change.


In reply to wretchard I said:

"The closer one gets to its top, the more it looks like the ghost of Rockefeller. "

That is not the only problem. The closer one gets to the bottom the more it looks like Jerry Fallwell. And neither is attractive to the libertarian oriented youth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magaz ... =all&_r=1&

The Republican Party is dead except on a local level. And Libertarians "stole" 9 down ticket races from the Rs in the last election. Giving them to the Ds.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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MSimon
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby MSimon » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:14 am

Zero Hedge is piling on:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-2 ... s%E2%80%A6

Police state tactics used against, among others, raw milk producers, alternative health providers, and gold coin dealers is justified by the paternalistic attitude common in Washington, D.C. A member of Congress actually once told me that, “The people need these types of laws because they do not know what is good for them.” This mindset fuels the growth of the nanny state and inevitably leads to what C.S. Lewis said may be the worst from of tyranny “…a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims.” All Americans, even if they do not believe it is a wise choice to drink raw milk or use gold coins, should be concerned about the use of force to limit our choices. This is because there is no limiting principle to the idea that the government force is justified if used “for our own good.” Today it is those who sell raw milk who are being victimized by government force, tomorrow it could be those who sell soda pop or Styrofoam cups. Therefore, all Americans should speak out against these injustices.

====

The Republicans are just as much nanny staters as the Democrats. What does each party say about the other?

"Our fears are real, yours are imaginary." Thus both parties are obviously champions of liberty.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

Jccarlton
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Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby Jccarlton » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:11 pm

You know a friend of mine, who owns a comic book store in virginia said of the mandarains, they don't matter. I think that that's becoming mor the case. Except for what they extort from us, our governing class has become irrelevant even to solve their own created messes.
MSimon wrote:Zero Hedge is piling on:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-2 ... s%E2%80%A6

Police state tactics used against, among others, raw milk producers, alternative health providers, and gold coin dealers is justified by the paternalistic attitude common in Washington, D.C. A member of Congress actually once told me that, “The people need these types of laws because they do not know what is good for them.” This mindset fuels the growth of the nanny state and inevitably leads to what C.S. Lewis said may be the worst from of tyranny “…a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims.” All Americans, even if they do not believe it is a wise choice to drink raw milk or use gold coins, should be concerned about the use of force to limit our choices. This is because there is no limiting principle to the idea that the government force is justified if used “for our own good.” Today it is those who sell raw milk who are being victimized by government force, tomorrow it could be those who sell soda pop or Styrofoam cups. Therefore, all Americans should speak out against these injustices.

====

The Republicans are just as much nanny staters as the Democrats. What does each party say about the other?

"Our fears are real, yours are imaginary." Thus both parties are obviously champions of liberty.

Jccarlton
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Southern Ct

Re: We Only Want What's Best For You

Postby Jccarlton » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:53 am



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