The Debt Limit Debate

[Diogenes]

So you are saying there is not a single job? It's hard to believe that. Maybe what you are saying is that he can't get one that pays more than his unemployment. So instead of doing that, he spins his wheels. But also, my point is more that there is no way to not spin your wheels in these programs. You get money, but not training, education, or anything so that you can change fields, increase ability, etc. to get past the strings the unemployement comes with.

The system is not designed to solve problems. It is designed to get votes for Democrats, thereby keeping them in power. It was cynically created by Lyndon Johnson to vote farm the poor, and it has worked perfectly.


I wish I could get people to look at and understand the history of what happened and why.

[Diogenes]

Unless you think that what is best is that the poor, should stay poor.

My neighbor is trying everything he can to get a job. Less unemployment benefits will not help him to get un-poor quicker.

Economics is a sort of package deal. The system which created the conditions that make him unemployed is the same system which is paying him the benefits. Without government tampering in the market, the ground conditions would be very different. Sending 2.7 trillion dollars to Washington every year so that they can send back 40% of the value of it and manipulate the rest of us is not beneficial to stable growth.

What is true in aggregate is not always true on the individual level.

I feel sorry for your neighbor, but I see conditions growing worse for everyone if we can't solve the root of the problem. I presume your neighbor lives in a Liberal Urban environment? If he can afford it, there are jobs in Texas and North Dakota. A lot also depends on what is his skill set.

[Diogenes]

I think society should provide a safety net, but I want it to be nothing more than what I would ask for were I destitute.

A bed to sleep in (not a Section 8 house) some food, (Not a credit card with money on it) and shoes and clothes if I should need some. (Goodwill/Salvation-army is just fine. H*ll, that's where I get most of my clothes anyway. I'm not too proud to wear someone else's castoffs. )

Keep me alive with the minimum burden on those who carry me until I can start carrying myself again. Life on the dole should not be comfortable. It is counter productive to both the citizen and the state.

Okay. Then you are not as harsh as sounded to me at first. I certainly understand your point of view.

A lot of people think i'm a heartless A$$hole, but I do everything I can to help people who want to help themselves. Last year I was providing housing for 4 people who were not members of my family, trying to help them get on their feet. I've spent a small fortune trying to help people with their shortfalls from time to time. Some of them follow my advice, most of them don't. Those that do get ahead. Those that don't don't.

What people need is tough love, not enabling.

As paperburn1 says, it's a matter of level and on something like that, you can never have everyone agree on what is the precisely correct "level".

Only, really, I think the problem is not so much "what level", but instead how not to make the safety net an encouragement to stay out of the workforce. I know it so happens that the level of the safety net directly correlates to this, but I think no one would disagree if we could find a way to keep the level where it is, but weed out the dis-honest free-loaders. Easier said than done, I know.

It has become socially acceptable to receive government money instead of working for your bread. People used to have pride in the fact that they were propelling their own ship.

[GIThruster]

It has become socially acceptable to receive government money instead of working for your bread. People used to have pride in the fact that they were propelling their own ship.

Yes and when welfare issues were all handled by private charities, the people involved in distributing the helps were able to keep tabs on those receiving the help. If someone couldn't find work, the whole church or village would be looking for work for the person. If Sammy needed his fence painted, he knew who to go to. You certainly don't turn down work if you're living off charity.

Compare that to simon who doesn't even look for work, spends the day in front of the computer getting high and ranting about how everyone else is "evil" and to blame for his refusal to finish school, get a job, earn a living and support his family. He can afford to live the way he does becasue there is no personal accountability. No one could afford to do what he has done all these years just 75 years ago. Thanks, FDR.

[Maui]

Economics is a sort of package deal. The system which created the conditions that make him unemployed is the same system which is paying him the benefits. Without government tampering in the market, the ground conditions would be very different. Sending 2.7 trillion dollars to Washington every year so that they can send back 40% of the value of it and manipulate the rest of us is not beneficial to stable growth.

Well, I'll give you this much: I'm not necessarily "for" cutting these programs, but I'm much less against cuts to them than I am saddling my kids with enormous debt.

I feel sorry for your neighbor, but I see conditions growing worse for everyone if we can't solve the root of the problem. I presume your neighbor lives in a Liberal Urban environment? If he can afford it, there are jobs in Texas and North Dakota. A lot also depends on what is his skill set.

If you talked to him, I think you'd understand. It was probably a miracle he was employed for as long as he was.

[MSimon]

Compare that to simon who doesn't even look for work, spends the day in front of the computer getting high and ranting about how everyone else is "evil" and to blame for his refusal to finish school, get a job, earn a living and support his family. He can afford to live the way he does becasue there is no personal accountability. No one could afford to do what he has done all these years just 75 years ago. Thanks, FDR.

OK GIT Now you have pissed me off.

I am working:

http://www.ecnmag.com/tags/Blogs/M-Simon/

I am getting paid. And what do I get paid to do? Sit in front of a computer all day looking for suitable material and practice my writing skills by commenting etc. Which is to say that I get paid for doing exactly what you object to. Sweet.

How did I get the job? My bosses liked the writing of mine they found on the 'net. They are quite aware of my views.

Better yet - I'm under contract not an employee.

=============

So what am I going to do GIT? I'm going to post my little ditty on every single thread I find that you comment on until I get what I feel is a sincere apology for

"simon who doesn't even look for work"

You want to make it personal?

Game on.

========

Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept - heal the sick.

Changes in endocannabinoid levels and/or CB2 receptor expressions have been reported in almost all diseases affecting humans,[34] ranging from cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, liver, kidney, neurodegenerative, psychiatric, bone, skin, autoimmune, lung disorders to pain and cancer.

CB2

CB1

[MSimon]

The only government money I get is a return of the Social Security money already stolen from me. And I have no objection to ending the program or at least means testing it.

Until that happens I'm going to take back what is mine with interest. If I can.

==

Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept - heal the sick.

Changes in endocannabinoid levels and/or CB2 receptor expressions have been reported in almost all diseases affecting humans,[34] ranging from cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, liver, kidney, neurodegenerative, psychiatric, bone, skin, autoimmune, lung disorders to pain and cancer.

CB2

CB1

[MSimon]

And note - my government check gave me the liberty to promote Polywell. I'd say the government got its money's worth out of me.

===

Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept - heal the sick.

Changes in endocannabinoid levels and/or CB2 receptor expressions have been reported in almost all diseases affecting humans,[34] ranging from cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, liver, kidney, neurodegenerative, psychiatric, bone, skin, autoimmune, lung disorders to pain and cancer.

CB2

[Maui]

And note - my government check gave me the liberty to promote Polywell. I'd say the government got its money's worth out of me.

So the gov would be getting its money's worth if it reimbursed everyone's lobbying expenses?

Personally, I think it should be the other way around-- I'd like to see a 100% tax on political contributions and lobbying expenses (well, at least by corporations and unions).

[Stubby]

So you are saying there is not a single job? It's hard to believe that. Maybe what you are saying is that he can't get one that pays more than his unemployment. So instead of doing that, he spins his wheels. But also, my point is more that there is no way to not spin your wheels in these programs. You get money, but not training, education, or anything so that you can change fields, increase ability, etc. to get past the strings the unemployement comes with.

The system is not designed to solve problems. It is designed to get votes for Democrats, thereby keeping them in power. It was cynically created by Lyndon Johnson to vote farm the poor, and it has worked perfectly.


I wish I could get people to look at and understand the history of what happened and why.

Nixon (Ford), Reagan, Bush, Shrub are what? some sort of malfunction of the 'system'?
Since Johnson, Republicans have spent more time as POTUS than Democrats.

[JLawson]

So you are saying there is not a single job? It's hard to believe that. Maybe what you are saying is that he can't get one that pays more than his unemployment. So instead of doing that, he spins his wheels. But also, my point is more that there is no way to not spin your wheels in these programs. You get money, but not training, education, or anything so that you can change fields, increase ability, etc. to get past the strings the unemployement comes with.

The system is not designed to solve problems. It is designed to get votes for Democrats, thereby keeping them in power. It was cynically created by Lyndon Johnson to vote farm the poor, and it has worked perfectly.


I wish I could get people to look at and understand the history of what happened and why.

Nixon (Ford), Reagan, Bush, Shrub are what? some sort of malfunction of the 'system'?
Since Johnson, Republicans have spent more time as POTUS than Democrats.

Yes, but it takes a lot longer to undo a malfunctioning system when the folks who designed and built it are doing their best to prevent any sort of fix. Remember Bush proposing reform of Social Security? Remember the furor and the Democrats insisting that Social Security wasn't broke, wouldn't have any problems, shouldn't be touched? Remember how Barney Frank fought to have NO oversight of Fannie and Freddie? It was all good! Didn't need any oversight! No problems here!

And then suddenly... there was.

Building a working system is hard - even if that system isn't working right. Saving a system that you spent a lot of time on, that you're emotionally invested in, that you've sweated political capital over and mortgaged your soul to create is going to be a priority for you.

And if that system gets you votes no matter how badly it performs - you're gonna keep that thing going until it explodes in your face.

[Diogenes]

And note - my government check gave me the liberty to promote Polywell. I'd say the government got its money's worth out of me.

So the gov would be getting its money's worth if it reimbursed everyone's lobbying expenses?

Personally, I think it should be the other way around-- I'd like to see a 100% tax on political contributions and lobbying expenses (well, at least by corporations and unions).

I ponder the effect lobbying has on our system, and so far I and others think that perhaps the simplest effort to remedy the problem could be made by making congressmen stay home in their districts and vote from there rather than concentrate in Washington where they can be wined and dined by Lobbyists and Liberals.

It would be more difficult for Lobbyists to visit 535 districts than it would one big one in Washington. Also the public could better keep an eye on their doings.

The need to go to Washington is a relic from a bygone era and now that it serves us badly, it needs to be dispensed with.

[Diogenes]

So you are saying there is not a single job? It's hard to believe that. Maybe what you are saying is that he can't get one that pays more than his unemployment. So instead of doing that, he spins his wheels. But also, my point is more that there is no way to not spin your wheels in these programs. You get money, but not training, education, or anything so that you can change fields, increase ability, etc. to get past the strings the unemployement comes with.

The system is not designed to solve problems. It is designed to get votes for Democrats, thereby keeping them in power. It was cynically created by Lyndon Johnson to vote farm the poor, and it has worked perfectly.




I wish I could get people to look at and understand the history of what happened and why.

Nixon (Ford), Reagan, Bush, Shrub are what? some sort of malfunction of the 'system'?
Since Johnson, Republicans have spent more time as POTUS than Democrats.

Eliminate the effect of "War on Poverty" voters and you would have had nothing but Republican Presidents, or more accurately, the Democrats wouldn't have lurched so heavily to the left in the last 50 years.

By modern standards, Both John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would be regarded as right winged extremists.

[hanelyp]

I ponder the effect lobbying has on our system, and so far I and others think that perhaps the simplest effort to remedy the problem could be made by making congressmen stay home in their districts and vote from there rather than concentrate in Washington where they can be wined and dined by Lobbyists and Liberals.

50 years ago congress critters had good reason to gather in one place for a short time each year. With modern electronic communications that is no longer necessary. As an additional benefit, a congress critter working out of an office in his district while congress is in session is, in principle, more accessible to his own constituents. Add in that the existing capitol building would be impossibly cramped if we had as many congress critters as I think would be proper, and a telecommute congress becomes a solid win.

[Diogenes]

I ponder the effect lobbying has on our system, and so far I and others think that perhaps the simplest effort to remedy the problem could be made by making congressmen stay home in their districts and vote from there rather than concentrate in Washington where they can be wined and dined by Lobbyists and Liberals.

50 years ago congress critters had good reason to gather in one place for a short time each year. With modern electronic communications that is no longer necessary. As an additional benefit, a congress critter working out of an office in his district while congress is in session is, in principle, more accessible to his own constituents. Add in that the existing capitol building would be impossibly cramped if we had as many congress critters as I think would be proper, and a telecommute congress becomes a solid win.

The powers that be would be absolutely against this idea because it doesn't allow for so much graft, and because many who are in power as a result of their influence, would lose that power.

You can expect the usual suspects to fight against this tooth and nail should such an idea actually be proposed.