Gates looking for energy solutions

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

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Jccarlton
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Post by Jccarlton »

Aero wrote:
MSimon wrote:Ah no back EMF? Are you serious? But OK. Suppose it is true? It gains you nothing except a motor that works at lower voltage for the same power out. But the current goes up in proportion as the voltage goes down. Because you can't beat ohm's law. Or energy conservation. And entropy increase.

And if all these fabulous motors work so well why not hook one to a generator give it a start and make a fortune selling electricity to the electric company?

Why isn't the Navy doing this for their big superconductor motors?
In a magnetic motor, the idea of motor current and motor voltage do not apply. They are animated by permanent magnets, not electromagnets. The only required current is that for the switching coil. None of the energy in the switching coil returns directly from the output shaft. Think of it by analogy to the spark plug in your gasoline engine. The power of the spark has no effect on the power of the running engine. Likewise, the power of the switching coil has no effect on the power of the magnetic motor.

As for selling electricity to the electrical company, I don't think that's allowed except from designated equipment types (Solar). Anyway, I haven't gotten around to building a magnetic motor.

The Navy? I expect they are skeptical just as most are. But power density is another consideration and I don't see magnetic motors matching the performance of the big superconductor motors, not until a lot of technololy has been developed at least.
Magnetic motors are nothing more than a gimmick for the gullible. They rely on the fact that you seem to be getting free energy from permanent magnets, but disregard the fact that it took enregy to make the permanent magnets magnetic in the first pace and that by placing a em field on the magnets evnetually you are going to degauss the magnets.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

There is not a lot of energy stored in magnets.

Other than that I do believe that there is nothing there.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

kurt9
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Post by kurt9 »

MSimon wrote:We will need other energy sources in 50 or 100 years.

CO2 is not the reason:

CO2 is irrelevant

The earth is homeostatic.

Re: Polywell. There is nothing to invest in at the moment. Unless some one wanted to head out on their own.
Bill can invest in John Slough's FRC concept, Helion Energy. I think this is the best prospect for fusion if the IEC polywell does not pan out.

It appears to be the only one yet to be financed. Tri-Alpha seems to have all of the money they need. General Fusion has received a cash infusion lately, and even Eric Lerner's focus fusion has recently obtained finance.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

kurt9 wrote:
MSimon wrote:We will need other energy sources in 50 or 100 years.

CO2 is not the reason:

CO2 is irrelevant

The earth is homeostatic.

Re: Polywell. There is nothing to invest in at the moment. Unless some one wanted to head out on their own.
Bill can invest in John Slough's FRC concept, Helion Energy. I think this is the best prospect for fusion if the IEC polywell does not pan out.

It appears to be the only one yet to be financed. Tri-Alpha seems to have all of the money they need. General Fusion has received a cash infusion lately, and even Eric Lerner's focus fusion has recently obtained finance.
I do believe the push for Polywell has loosened up sources for those that need them.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Aero
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Post by Aero »

Does anyone know how to contact MythBusters? There are two prevalent myths to be busted. The first is that Magnet Motors can be made which are over unity devices. That seems perfect for MythBusters. Let them investigate and bust the Steorm motor "myth."

The second one is perfect for Polywell and maybe this post should be in the "awareness" forum. The myth is that high school kids and science fiction writers can make nuclear fusion devices in their basement. That is a myth and all should know it, not withstanding Tom Ligon and his Farnsworth fusor. This topic is also perfect for MythBusters and maybe for Polywell awareness.

Then of course their is the old myth that a properly designed hot water steam rocket can make it to space.

Truth is, I think all three myths are true, but most of the MythBuster's viewing audience would not think so.
Aero

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Aero,

I'll give you two out of three.

Steam Rockets - the Space Shuttle ME.
Fusors.

Over unity magnetic motors? The energy is coming from somewhere. Where?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Josh Cryer
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Post by Josh Cryer »

MSimon, you believe Ferenc Miskolczi's nonsense?
Science is what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves about the way the world is.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Aero wrote: The second one is perfect for Polywell and maybe this post should be in the "awareness" forum. The myth is that high school kids and science fiction writers can make nuclear fusion devices in their basement. That is a myth and all should know it, not withstanding Tom Ligon and his Farnsworth fusor.
I don't remotely understand what you are saying there.

That statement seems to be, in the most generous interpretation, self-contradictory.

You'd probably have been asking for mythbusters to be disproving powered flight, had it been 150 years ago.

Besides, you can't 'disprove' something that you don't know what the answer is. You can disprove a spark plug in water can't generate fusion, but how can you disprove all possible future new experimental ideas - where do you think new ideas come from???? You seem to be suggesting all ideas for fusion are know and are as easy to come up with as reading the back of a cereal packet.
Last edited by chrismb on Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Josh Cryer wrote:MSimon, you believe Ferenc Miskolczi's nonsense?
Climate models ultimately presume Beer's law. But Beer's law is empirical.

I have asked climate scientists why they don't just shine a laser of know spectrum up to that mirror on the Moon (or put one up on a satellite) so that the absorption of the atmosphere can be fully measured, rathert than be presumed. Given the scale of this supposed problem, if I was looking into it then I'd have put in place a direct measurement of the main postulated mechanism (atmospheric absorption) by now.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

You don't get that he's saying just about anyone can build an amateur fusor, contrary to probably most people's belief?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote:
Aero wrote: The second one is perfect for Polywell and maybe this post should be in the "awareness" forum. The myth is that high school kids and science fiction writers can make nuclear fusion devices in their basement. That is a myth and all should know it, not withstanding Tom Ligon and his Farnsworth fusor.
I don't remotely understand what you are saying there.

That statement seems to be, in the most generous interpretation, self-contradictory.
I THINK he is setting up a strawman "myth" to have Mythbusters bust and thereby do a story on fusors and by extension Polywell. I think the "myth" should be "fusion research is only for billion dollar programs and the promise to provide power in 25 years has been around for 50 years, i.e., it will never happen."

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

chrismb wrote:
Josh Cryer wrote:MSimon, you believe Ferenc Miskolczi's nonsense?
Climate models ultimately presume Beer's law. But Beer's law is empirical.

I have asked climate scientists why they don't just shine a laser of know spectrum up to that mirror on the Moon (or put one up on a satellite) so that the absorption of the atmosphere can be fully measured, rathert than be presumed. Given the scale of this supposed problem, if I was looking into it then I'd have put in place a direct measurement of the main postulated mechanism (atmospheric absorption) by now.
A large inflatable corner reflector in orbit should do the trick. A constellation of them along with a number of ground stations that could produce a series of wavelengths could do the trick. A series of pulses (to separate signal from noise/background) would be all that is needed. Average power of a watt or two. Pulsed power - as much as can be developed.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Josh's link says:
fixed relation of relative humidity to altitude
It may on average be fixed. But in practice it is a variable.

And that is as far as I'm going to go.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Betruger wrote:You don't get that he's saying just about anyone can build an amateur fusor, contrary to probably most people's belief?
No, his words are implying just about anyone CAN'T build an amateur fusion device, excepting the gridded fusor.

If he missed out a " 't " and meant as you say, then that's fine. That'd be a good one as it is easy to bust that myth with the fusor. Sure.

Which way did he mean it??

Aero
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Post by Aero »

chrismb wrote:
Betruger wrote:You don't get that he's saying just about anyone can build an amateur fusor, contrary to probably most people's belief?
No, his words are implying just about anyone CAN'T build an amateur fusion device, excepting the gridded fusor.

If he missed out a " 't " and meant as you say, then that's fine. That'd be a good one as it is easy to bust that myth with the fusor. Sure.

Which way did he mean it??
:D I meant it in whichever way will generate sufficient interest from MythBusters to get them to do a show segment. I know that normally I can't have it both ways, but it looks to me like we have the basis of a good myth here. Its either one way or the other.

I doubt that the general public is aware that a bunch of people think that fusors can be built by high school experimenters. And I think that the general public might be horrified to think that that kid next door was tinkering with working nuclear devices. How do we state the myth for the benefit of Polywell awareness and proof of safety in the neighborhood? Maybe I should forget it, because concern for safety may be more negative than any benefit achieved from awareness.
Aero

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