I think that there must be a hole in the souls of people who manipulate young Black girls to have abortions and those actually perform them.:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/310972.php
Abortionists Are Such Wonderfu People
Re: Abortionists Are Such Wonderfu People
I started to click the links. This is a horror story beyond belief:Jccarlton wrote:I think that there must be a hole in the souls of people who manipulate young Black girls to have abortions and those actually perform them.:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/310972.php
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/01/19/a ... ladelphia/
Just reading the Grand Jury Report makes you wonder how the government of Pennsylvania could allow this to go on for decades:
http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/P ... edical.pdf
Abortions are legal in Austria and we do not have problems with anti abortion fanatics that attack people that go into clinics to get an abortion (they are just the gynecology departments of normal clinics) and we have never had anything like this happening, ever.
I think that places like this are the result of the somewhat difficult situation regarding abortion in the US. The regulations are full of holes and regular clinics refuse to do them out of fear of boycott. The restul are places like this. From what I understand this clinic was illegal in the first place and the guy was arrested as soon as the government found out.
I have to admit though, that I did not read every article about it. This is too disgusting.
My take on abortion is that people should learn how to use birth control if they dont want children (there is NO excuse these days). Exceptions for me are medical necessities (mother in danger) and rapes.
I do still think though that up to 14 weeks, it should be the mothers choice.
This is the way it is here. Reason is that you can detect whether a child has some severe damage at this age (you can see the neck fold and other things) in which case, IMHO it makes more sense to do an abortion and try again for a healthy child. That may sound harsh, but in an age where people only have two children or less (because it is hard to afford more), this is a logical step.
I think that places like this are the result of the somewhat difficult situation regarding abortion in the US. The regulations are full of holes and regular clinics refuse to do them out of fear of boycott. The restul are places like this. From what I understand this clinic was illegal in the first place and the guy was arrested as soon as the government found out.
I have to admit though, that I did not read every article about it. This is too disgusting.
My take on abortion is that people should learn how to use birth control if they dont want children (there is NO excuse these days). Exceptions for me are medical necessities (mother in danger) and rapes.
I do still think though that up to 14 weeks, it should be the mothers choice.
This is the way it is here. Reason is that you can detect whether a child has some severe damage at this age (you can see the neck fold and other things) in which case, IMHO it makes more sense to do an abortion and try again for a healthy child. That may sound harsh, but in an age where people only have two children or less (because it is hard to afford more), this is a logical step.
Skip,Skipjack wrote:Abortions are legal in Austria and we do not have problems with anti abortion fanatics that attack people that go into clinics to get an abortion (they are just the gynecology departments of normal clinics) and we have never had anything like this happening, ever.
I think that places like this are the result of the somewhat difficult situation regarding abortion in the US. The regulations are full of holes and regular clinics refuse to do them out of fear of boycott. The restul are places like this. From what I understand this clinic was illegal in the first place and the guy was arrested as soon as the government found out.
I have to admit though, that I did not read every article about it. This is too disgusting.
My take on abortion is that people should learn how to use birth control if they dont want children (there is NO excuse these days). Exceptions for me are medical necessities (mother in danger) and rapes.
I do still think though that up to 14 weeks, it should be the mothers choice.
This is the way it is here. Reason is that you can detect whether a child has some severe damage at this age (you can see the neck fold and other things) in which case, IMHO it makes more sense to do an abortion and try again for a healthy child. That may sound harsh, but in an age where people only have two children or less (because it is hard to afford more), this is a logical step.
I can tell that you did not scan the Grand Jury Report that I linked to. This was not a case of somebody crooked setting up shop, running for a little while and the gov't stepping and doing its job. The State Government of Pensylvania willlfully looked the other way, for decades and allowed this 'doctor" and probably more like him to do what they did. From the Grand Jury report:
We discovered that Pennsylvania’s Department of Health has deliberately chosen not to enforce laws that should afford patients at abortion clinics the same safeguards and assurances of quality health care as patients of other medical service providers. Even nail salons in Pennsylvania are monitored more closely for client safety.
The State Legislature has charged the Department of Health (DOH) with responsibility for writing and enforcing regulations to protect health and safety in abortion clinics as well as in hospitals and other health care facilities. Yet a significant difference exists between how DOH monitors abortion clinics and how it monitors facilities where other medical procedures are performed.
Indeed, the department has shown an utter disregard both for the safety of women who seek treatment at abortion clinics and for the health of fetuses after they have become viable. State health officials have also shown a disregard for the laws the department is supposed to enforce. Most appalling of all, the Department of Health’s neglect of abortion patients’ safety and of Pennsylvania laws is clearly not inadvertent: It is by design. …
I think that this kind of governance or malfeasance goes far beyond any politics about abortion.
Skipjack wrote:Abortions are legal in Austria and we do not have problems with anti abortion fanatics that attack people that go into clinics to get an abortion (they are just the gynecology departments of normal clinics) and we have never had anything like this happening, ever.
Just another symptom of the disease that will kill Austria. When the Muslims achieve sufficient population numbers from having babies instead of killing them, That nonsensical tolerance of murdering one's own offspring will cease. In this regard, the Muslims are more civilized than the enlightened of Europe.
Skipjack wrote: I think that places like this are the result of the somewhat difficult situation regarding abortion in the US. The regulations are full of holes and regular clinics refuse to do them out of fear of boycott. The restul are places like this. From what I understand this clinic was illegal in the first place and the guy was arrested as soon as the government found out.
I have to admit though, that I did not read every article about it. This is too disgusting.
"Legal"? What does that word mean? Is it supposed to convey some sort of sense of right and wrong?
Skipjack wrote: My take on abortion is that people should learn how to use birth control if they dont want children (there is NO excuse these days). Exceptions for me are medical necessities (mother in danger) and rapes.
Absolutely. When you get pregnant, you have MADE a choice. Either overtly or tacitly.
Skipjack wrote: I do still think though that up to 14 weeks, it should be the mothers choice.
This is the way it is here. Reason is that you can detect whether a child has some severe damage at this age (you can see the neck fold and other things) in which case, IMHO it makes more sense to do an abortion and try again for a healthy child. That may sound harsh, but in an age where people only have two children or less (because it is hard to afford more), this is a logical step.
I think it should be tolerated only as a necessary medical procedure. Not for convenience.
Did you see the story about 40% of Pregnancies in New York ended in Abortion?
I think that legally the choice should be up to the woman, but I dont like it, I dont condone it and I think that society should make sure it is frowned upon. I do not think that harassing people that go into abortion clinics, or that work there is the right way though. I think that educating people on the importance of children is the way to go.I think it should be tolerated only as a necessary medical procedure. Not for convenience.
Skipjack wrote:I think that legally the choice should be up to the woman, but I dont like it, I dont condone it and I think that society should make sure it is frowned upon. I do not think that harassing people that go into abortion clinics, or that work there is the right way though. I think that educating people on the importance of children is the way to go.I think it should be tolerated only as a necessary medical procedure. Not for convenience.
Here in the USA we had legal slavery. At that time, legally the choice was made by the slaveowner. We decided that it was not reasonable for one human to have the power of life or death over another, and so we made what was morally unacceptable, illegal.
As I have pointed out before, the Abolitionist movement of that era turned their attention to Abortion, and outlawed it in every state in our nation. It was ILLEGAL.
It was not made legal by the will of the people, but in defiance of that will by a Liberal stuffed supreme court who simply declared it legal based on no identifiable principle of law.
It is my opinion that the practice should not be tolerated except in the case where it is physically and medically necessary. It is a very evil thing, and those nations that tolerate it will be overcome by those which do not. It is morally worse than slavery.
Skipjack wrote:Legal means that it is not against the law."Legal"? What does that word mean? Is it supposed to convey some sort of sense of right and wrong?
Here today, gone tomorrow. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi. Pardon me if i'm not impressed by the latest scribblings of lawyers.
Skipjack wrote: Whats right or wrong often depends on our personal point of view and the environment we are in.
I believe in the principle of objective morality, meaning morality that can be defined scientifically without resorting to the subjectivity of individual observers.
The number one rule of morality is that you do no evil to your children. (i.e. your gene pool)
And for people who don't agree with that there will be a black market.I think it should be tolerated only as a necessary medical procedure. Not for convenience.
Thus everyone's needs will be served.
The moralists can pretend they have stopped the practice and those who want it bad enough will be served. Kind of like with illegal drugs.
My solution is to change people's minds. i.e. convince the women that abortion is a bad idea. But something will need to be done about the economics since most abortions are done for economic reasons.
I propose raising welfare payments. So does the Catholic Church.
I'm pretty sure we could end abortion (mostly) by paying pregnant women $50K a year for 23 years (long enough to get the kid through college). For some reason I'm not entirely clear on Conservatives hate the idea. I mean what is a life worth?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
MSimon wrote:And for people who don't agree with that there will be a black market.I think it should be tolerated only as a necessary medical procedure. Not for convenience.
Thus everyone's needs will be served.
The moralists can pretend they have stopped the practice and those who want it bad enough will be served. Kind of like with illegal drugs.
My solution is to change people's minds. i.e. convince the women that abortion is a bad idea. But something will need to be done about the economics since most abortions are done for economic reasons.
I propose raising welfare payments. So does the Catholic Church.
I'm pretty sure we could end abortion (mostly) by paying pregnant women $50K a year for 23 years (long enough to get the kid through college). For some reason I'm not entirely clear on Conservatives hate the idea. I mean what is a life worth?
MSimon, I often find it futile to argue with you (on certain issues) because your arguments are always so full of false equivalences.
The North didn't BUY the slaves.
Is it so hard to comprehend that human life should not be held ransom to other people's money?
My dear D,Is it so hard to comprehend that human life should not be held ransom to other people's money?
You are talking about how people ought to behave. I'm talking about how they actually behave.
That is the disconnect between us. You imagine that you can get your utopia by the force of government guns. I'm telling you that even if you have the guns you can't get what you want.
By your own admission you are dealing with "ought". As an engineer through and through I prefer to deal with "is". And that includes human factors.
The majority of abortions revolve around economics (you can look it up). Deal with it.
The reason you have so much trouble with me on some subjects is that I like my meat raw (metaphorically speaking) and my lunch naked.
As I have stated so many times: my preference on this question is to change people's minds. It is difficult (heh). It is the only solution that doesn't require vast expense for little result. Or vaster expense for some result.
Here is where you are coming from (IMO): you hate the social engineering of the left. I hate the social engineering of the left and the right. Which position is more consistent?
Let me tell you a little secret I learned long ago: social engineering with government guns doesn't work. Two prime examples: Alcohol Prohibition, Drug Prohibition.
In my town the police have given up on stopping the drug trade. They have scaled back to what they can actually accomplish. Getting the street dealers off the streets. Now it could be done for far less expense by legalizing. But that will come.
This bit on the drug trade might prove instructive:
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... sible.html
You might also wish to read the longer article linked (and weep).
Now we could get together on a lot of things (say preventing abortion) if you took government guns off the table. IMO the resort to government guns to solve social problems (barring genocide) is the first resort of the weak minded.
A friend of mine told me recently that I would have better results if I was more diplomatic. Well that is not my style. Like an umpire I calls 'em as I see 'em.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
So what social problems are you willing to go to war over?Diogenes wrote:MSimon wrote:And for people who don't agree with that there will be a black market.I think it should be tolerated only as a necessary medical procedure. Not for convenience.
Thus everyone's needs will be served.
The moralists can pretend they have stopped the practice and those who want it bad enough will be served. Kind of like with illegal drugs.
My solution is to change people's minds. i.e. convince the women that abortion is a bad idea. But something will need to be done about the economics since most abortions are done for economic reasons.
I propose raising welfare payments. So does the Catholic Church.
I'm pretty sure we could end abortion (mostly) by paying pregnant women $50K a year for 23 years (long enough to get the kid through college). For some reason I'm not entirely clear on Conservatives hate the idea. I mean what is a life worth?
MSimon, I often find it futile to argue with you (on certain issues) because your arguments are always so full of false equivalences.
The North didn't BUY the slaves.
Is it so hard to comprehend that human life should not be held ransom to other people's money?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
OK,
You want to do social engineering? Fine. Shouldn't you start gathering information on how humans actually behave?
The target population demographics. Culture. Economics. Motivations. etc.
And what if abortion is Darwin in action? i.e. people not fit for the current environment are not reproducing. Isn't that how it is supposed to work?
You want to do social engineering? Fine. Shouldn't you start gathering information on how humans actually behave?
The target population demographics. Culture. Economics. Motivations. etc.
And what if abortion is Darwin in action? i.e. people not fit for the current environment are not reproducing. Isn't that how it is supposed to work?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.