Scientific Irrationalism: Origins of a post-modern cult

[tomclarke]

I will just note that:

a) Most Jews never took the Genesis stories so literally as modern fundamentalists have in the past century. The question you're asking is result of a host of presumptions you've made that the ancient Jew did not necessarily make.

b) Even if taken literally this is indeed a special case. You're talking about the first two people. Sounds like the kind of complaint we ought to expect from an angry little boy, not an adult; and it's got nothing to do with the issue at hand which was the contention that the Bible supports incest when in fact it taught incest was to be punished by death.

Hard to respect these lines of inquiry, Tom. You're losing credibility fast.

More excuses?

You are the one saying that the Holy scripture of one Book religion has bad moral teaching, whereas another is whiter than white.

What surprises me is how you can see any of these fascinating historical documents with very dubious moral teaching as appropriate or defining modern mores.

Of course, if you allow interpretation, as enlightened scholars both Christian and Islam do, the troubles melt away...

[GIThruster]

You can perhaps trade quote for quote and say the Qu'ran is worse - I don't know because I have not studied the Qu'ran.

Tom, none of your generalizations come to the facts or the issue and they are therefore worthless. The salient FACT of the matter is, that the Koran differs from every other world religion's sacred texts in that it is intrinsically VIOLENT. It teaches violence. It promotes violence. And it promotes violence for the cause of world domination. No other world religion even dabbles with such poison. Islam alone has this problem and it cannot be compared to any other religion.

Islam alone has terrorists as central to its teaching because Islam alone teaches world domination through violence. Islam alone has people strap explosives to their chests and kill themselves, based on the teaching that they'll earn a place in heaven and have 70 virgins as a reward. There is no parallel to this kind of teaching, which is all throughout the Koran; to be found in any other world religion.

Think about the dopey position you've placed yourself in, quibbling about incest in the garden of Eden as if this formed some comparison with the morally destitute teachings of islam. Absurd atheistic nonsense.

[Diogenes]

Quite right, we don`t hunt aborigenees anymore, we dupe poor countries into taking on loans with crushing interest rates, that way we can starve them to death.

An argument has been made that Congressionally enacted Ethanol Mandates have caused corn prices to skyrocket worldwide, driving up the prices of all other grains as well because people try to substitute them for the now cost prohibitive corn meal. It has been argued that much of the violence in Egypt and elsewhere is the result of people discovering how desperate is their food situation.

Again, let Democrats get into power, and they implement idiot ideas which end up killing and immiserating many thousands of people. Democrats simply cannot comprehend how stupid they are. Keystone Pipeline anyone? Doing that instead of Ethanol mandates would have saved a lot of people's jobs, and other people's lives.

[303]

And I agree, many Christians have an enlightened interpretation of these things, as do many Muslims.

Sorry, have to disagree. You cant have an enlightened interpretation of any of those books because its claimed that they are infallible. Theres no 'interpretation' of this god guy ordering the destruction of some tribe , including women & children, & ALL the other thoroughly nasty things to be found.

I know what you meant, but its fence sitting tbh .. either you believe in the text of your 'holy books' or you don't , and if you dont believe youre not really an 'enlightened muzzie/xtian' youre just enlightened lol

ppl have an inate sense of wonder and majesty of the world/universe we see around us , which i would call spiritual (but not believe in spirits!) , music and love etc combined with occams razor/uncertainty over beginning

this has been hijacked by religion, and replaced by dogma

im not a fan of religion, but it serves a role in communities/funerals/architecture etc but it pisses me off when they claim it to be true, and actually use scientific advances to promote their millenia-old argument , despite most scientific advances early on made in the teeth of religious opposition , mostly ending with scientist persecuted for heresy

religious people cant even agree amongst themselves what their religion is, certainly at war with other religions most of the time, why you think america was founded, to get away from church-run europe! thats why seperation of church and state is keystone of their constitution, (also why religious pluralism is protected in the states) , but look at it now , mormon republican candidate (mormon seriously??????), muslim-lite president , makes me wanna puke , jefferson and co must be rolling in their graves

[GIThruster]

Sorry, have to disagree. You cant have an enlightened interpretation of any of those books because its claimed that they are infallible.

There is only a small portion of most world religions that claim their sacred texts are infallible. Islam is here again the exception as most Muslims make this claim. Almost no Christians believe the bible is infallible and almost no Catholics believe the Pope is infallible. Almost all Muslims believe the Koran is infallible.

[tomclarke]

You can perhaps trade quote for quote and say the Qu'ran is worse - I don't know because I have not studied the Qu'ran.

Tom, none of your generalizations come to the facts or the issue and they are therefore worthless. The salient FACT of the matter is, that the Koran differs from every other world religion's sacred texts in that it is intrinsically VIOLENT. It teaches violence. It promotes violence. And it promotes violence for the cause of world domination. No other world religion even dabbles with such poison. Islam alone has this problem and it cannot be compared to any other religion.

Islam alone has terrorists as central to its teaching because Islam alone teaches world domination through violence. Islam alone has people strap explosives to their chests and kill themselves, based on the teaching that they'll earn a place in heaven and have 70 virgins as a reward. There is no parallel to this kind of teaching, which is all throughout the Koran; to be found in any other world religion.

Think about the dopey position you've placed yourself in, quibbling about incest in the garden of Eden as if this formed some comparison with the morally destitute teachings of islam. Absurd atheistic nonsense.

You say I am generalising. Then you spout this stuff whilst not dealing with my specific quotes above.

I'm not apologising for the darker side of Islam. It is particularly nasty, probably about as bad as Christianity was at a similar time in its development. And no-one, but no-one is more against the barbaric aspects of some middle-eastern and arabic cultures - genital mutilation of women, honour killings, and child abuse in the name of exorcism. Mostly from Islam but many from Christianity in an African context.

I find your throwing stones over this matter hypocritical in the extreme, because you are not equally condemning the unpleasantness in Chistianity's scriptures and followers.

Jesus would have talked of planks and eyes.

Here is a Christian comment on world domination.

The executive director of the "influential" Coral Ridge Ministries, whose pastor is Rev. D. James Kennedy, once infamously remarked:

"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ--to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish."

This statement, of course, has been held up as proof of a Christian plot to rule the world, particularly when faced with the globally dominating goal of Islam. Defenders, including Grant himself, claim that they are not out to subvert the U.S. Constitution, which makes them different from Islamists, who want to overthrow the Constitution and impose sharia law on Americans against their will. It's an important difference, but since technically speaking Grant is probably correct that the New Testament mandates could be interpreted to compel Christians to dominate the world regardless of any national constitutions, in reality the critics are probably correct to be on their guard against this kind of speaking, from whatever faction it may come.

It seems this mesage is being heded at least in the US.

[Diogenes]

These 'poor' countries are the ones asking for the loans in the first place, and accept the conditions.
Choff, isnt it moral relativism to attach blame to the money lenders, who could just tell these poor countries to swivel and leave them to rot.

Much of Foreign Aid is "Taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries."

[GIThruster]

Tom, all your points are vacant. From the beginning of this discussion my contention has been that Islam is unique in its teaching in ways that set it apart from all other world religions, and it is the things it is unique in that make it a threat. In particular, the facts that the Koran teaches it is the task of all Muslims to pursue world domination, and that Muslims have indeed done this for 1,400 years, set it apart from every other world religion.

A single quote from a single Christian that uses the same language, considered in light of the fact we have never seen this in Christianity, is pathetic. Even if you're ignorant of the reasons behind the Crusades, and stupidly claim they were an attempt at the same sort of imperialistic domination, you have to grant that in 2,000 years, Christianity has not been characterized by such violence or intent. Islam is COMPLETELY CHARACTERIZED BY SUCH ACTION AND INTENT.

You appear more a fool each time you make these arguments. All of the generalist tripe that lumps religions together with Islam is atheistic nonsense easily refuted by the FACTS. Your position is completely irrational and the sympathy with Islam that you're promulgating is in fact a threat to the security of the world. Only atheists are so foolish and do these things out of a need to discredit all religion. Your motives are obvious and you appear more a fool each time you post on this subject.

[tomclarke]

OK - Christianity not violent?

Well if Christians had kept the NT but ditched the OT you would be on tolerable ground. But they do not.

• "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
  
  "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)
  
  
  "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

The other BIG PROBLEM for Christian scripture is Revelations. It would nevr have got past a modern censor:

• "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:3-4)
  
  "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." (Revelation 9:3-4)
  
  "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)
  
  "...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." (Revelation 14:3-4)

So - GIT - admit that all the OT and Revelation were mistakes, not part of the true Christian Scripture, an I'll take more seriously your complaints about other scripture being violent.

In the OT not accepting Yahweh as God was a capital crime, punishable by death (if male) and death or rape (if female). In Revelations not following Jesus is equally fatal - and since all those who are not explicitly marked as OK are killed, this is numerically a lot worse.

[303]

Diogenes wrote

I'm an agnostic myself, but I believe the Christian religion has been very good to it's adherents, giving them a superior society to that of all others which had existed at the time and previously. Christianity created the social stability necessary for scientific development and advancement. Had Europe continued to worship the pagan gods, I doubt we would have ever advanced beyond Roman Technology.

which type of agnostic are you? I think we wouldve done just fine under pagan gods (i actually like the old sun/moon stuff, at least it has a kind of naturalism thats appealing, and you get to see them a lot, unlike god)

library of alexandria, anyone?

also GIT, islam mostly, but i believe christians havent been adverse to bandying around the phrases 'word of the lord' 'word of god' which sounds fairly infallible, especially at age 4

[tomclarke]

Tom, all your points are vacant. From the beginning of this discussion my contention has been that Islam is unique in its teaching in ways that set it apart from all other world religions, and it is the things it is unique in that make it a threat. In particular, the facts that the Koran teaches it is the task of all Muslims to pursue world domination, and that Muslims have indeed done this for 1,400 years, set it apart from every other world religion.

A single quote from a single Christian that uses the same language, considered in light of the fact we have never seen this in Christianity, is pathetic. Even if you're ignorant of the reasons behind the Crusades, and stupidly claim they were an attempt at the same sort of imperialistic domination, you have to grant that in 2,000 years, Christianity has not been characterized by such violence or intent. Islam is COMPLETELY CHARACTERIZED BY SUCH ACTION AND INTENT.

You appear more a fool each time you make these arguments. All of the generalist tripe that lumps religions together with Islam is atheistic nonsense easily refuted by the FACTS. Your position is completely irrational and the sympathy with Islam that you're promulgating is in fact a threat to the security of the world. Only atheists are so foolish and do these things out of a need to discredit all religion. Your motives are obvious and you appear more a fool each time you post on this subject.

With respect GIT. You are both wrong and insulting in attributing "obvious" motives to me. Please explain what they are, cos its not obvious to me what you think my motives are other than a dislike of Holy books that are treated literally by people.

You are right, it is most troubling for Islam that the Qu'ran is regarded as untranslatable and true word for word. I am sure more Muslims believe this at the moment than Christians do of the Bible. Of course literal truth of the Bible was commonly accepted for centuries, so Christianity has only recently emerged from this.

At the moment the number for Christians is still troublingly high in the US and accounts for many bad things, as I'm sure you know:

The Barna Research Group 5 reported in 1996 that among American adults generally:
58% believe that the Bible is "totally accurate in all its teachings"
45% believe that the Bible is "absolutely accurate and everything in it can be taken literally."

Support dropped between that poll and another taken in 2001. Barna reported in 2001 that:
41% of adults strongly agrees that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches.

They also published beliefs by denomination:
Above average: Pentecostal / Foursquare: 81%
Assembly of God: 77%
Christian, non-denominational (mostly Fundamentalist) 70%
Baptist: 66%
Seventh-day Adventist: 64%
Church of Christ: 57%

It is good, I suppose, that 20% of Penteciostal Christians are enlightended compard with (maybe, I don't have figures, I'll try find them) fewer Muslims. But it does not make happy reading.

Let me finally point out that althpough you accuse me of generalisations, you have not offered support for any of your sweping comments, whereas I have done this.

[GIThruster]

So - GIT - admit that all the OT and Revelation were mistakes, not part of the true Christian Scripture, an I'll take more seriously your complaints about other scripture being violent.

I don't think I want to allow you to redirect the focus of my statements on yet another diversion. Each time you post up some silly nonsense you know nothing about and are shown your ignorance, you find a new objection. You're the one off on an atheistic religion bashing crusade--you can go do your own thing. There are plenty of atheists here to cheer you on. Doesn't make your arguments any stronger, your conclusions less unwarranted or your attitude less pathetic.

The fact remains, that Islam alone in the world, has justified anything/everything for the sake of world domination. We have problems with islamo-terrorists that we have never seen with any other religion. We have 1,400 years of religious wars for the sake of Islam. There are no other world religions that have ever posed such a threat to peace in the world. And the fact remains that one does need to be acting the moron for ulterior motives to fail to apprehend these facts and their import.

Your atheism makes you a moron, Tom; and you need to know, it is this kind of thing that makes atheists so unpopular. It's only when they are offering specious arguments like this that sensible people find them a nuisance unworthy of the time to address.

[tomclarke]

So - GIT - admit that all the OT and Revelation were mistakes, not part of the true Christian Scripture, an I'll take more seriously your complaints about other scripture being violent.

I don't think I want to allow you to redirect the focus of my statements on yet another diversion. Each time you post up some silly nonsense you know nothing about and are shown your ignorance, you find a new objection. You're the one off on an atheistic religion bashing crusade--you can go do your own thing. There are plenty of atheists here to cheer you on. Doesn't make your arguments any stronger, your conclusions less unwarranted or your attitude less pathetic.

The fact remains, that Islam alone in the world, has justified anything/everything for the sake of world domination. We have problems with islamo-terrorists that we have never seen with any other religion. We have 1,400 years of religious wars for the sake of Islam. There are no other world religions that have ever posed such a threat to peace in the world. And the fact remains that one does need to be acting the moron for ulterior motives to fail to apprehend these facts and their import.

Your atheism makes you a moron, Tom; and you need to know, it is this kind of thing that makes atheists so unpopular. It's only when they are offering specious arguments like this that sensible people find them a nuisance unworthy of the time to address.

GIT - you are uninformed and insulting when you comment on my religious belief. I am not an atheist.

Here is a rational-seeming comment from an Islamic blog about the Islamophobic comments similar to yours:

http://spencerwatch.com/2011/05/12/majo ... rd-of-god/

The argument here is interestingly that Christians need to claim (unsuccesfully) that the Bible is not literally interpreted, because otherwise its violence would be shocking. Whereas Muslims can happily live with literal truth of the Quran because it is less violent.

I have not followed the details of this, and suspect there may be some sophistry. But I equally suspect your "evil book" demagoguery - especially becausre you make strong assertions without gicing detailed and considered textual argument.

You have BTW, not yet answered my quotes showing the Bible specifically urging both honour killings and mass execution of unbelievers.

[Diogenes]

If you say Islam is horrible, you should say Christianity is horrible.

Tu Quoque.

Worth noting that Christian fundamentalist sects often seem to be equally horrible. Also note that the Roman Catholic church has institutionalised the practice and cover-up of paedophilia for a long time.though we in the West may look at middle-eastern cultures with superiority we ourselves are but a century from equal abuses, and have our own now that we do not like to look at.

I am familiar with what "Christianists"have done, and I'm familiar with what Islamists have done. I think that were you as familiar as I, you would easily conclude that the Islamists are far worse than are the Christianists. I think you et al are deathly afraid of being thought of as bigoted, so you put forth the trouble-avoidance claim that all sides are equally guilty.


In regard to death tolls, Islam has a larger body count than does Communism.

[GIThruster]

Tom, your points are lost on me. I can't see arguing with you about the Bible as worth my time. I will just note 2 things.

First, if you want a source for what most American's believe about religion, the source to go to is the Barna Group, who has done careful research on this issue for decades. I don't know anything about the blog you linked to except that the title of the piece makes a false claim, so I immediately passed over it as not worth my time. By comparison, Barna has shown for decades that most Americans do not believe much of the bible. They do not believe in infallibility, nor literal interpretation, nor even simple teachings from the bible like the existence of angels, demons, Satan, Heaven and Hell.

http://www.barna.org/barna-update/artic ... pirit-exis

Second thing I will note is what I have already noted. It is the plain teaching of the Koran, and it is the permeating belief amongst the vast majority of Muslims; that they are supposed to wage Jihad or "Holy War" against all infidels--those who disagree with them about their faith--and create a single world theocracy. This is the bedrock teaching of Islam. This is why we read about suicide bombers. This is why we have troubles with Iran. This is why the world lives in fear of who will be the next target for the nameless masses filled with hate and bent on destruction for destruction's sake.

If you can't recognize that Islam is alone in all the qualities that make it dangerous and a threat to world peace, there is something seriously wrong with your cognitive faculties.

In any event, I am not going to continue to answer point by point every little objection to the bible and Christianity that pops into your head because I have no interest in such. If you have an earnest interest in getting answers to your objections they are easy to find.