Lawaranceville E-Newsletter

[rcain]

I wonder is some sort of electrostatic or magnetic curtain is conceivable? installed around the view-port. In an opposite way for example, as is used in thin film/chemical vapour deposition processes.

[Joseph Chikva]

I wonder is some sort of electrostatic or magnetic curtain is conceivable? installed around the view-port. In an opposite way for example, as is used in thin film/chemical vapour deposition processes.

Do not know. But I would compare copper ion bombardment of glass not with chemical vapour deposition but with Ion implantation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_implantation

Typical ion energies are in the range of 10 to 500 keV (1,600 to 80,000 aJ). Energies in the range 1 to 10 keV (160 to 1,600 aJ) can be used, but result in a penetration of only a few nanometers or less.

Sputtering
Some of the collision events result in atoms being ejected (sputtered) from the surface, and thus ion implantation will slowly etch away a surface. The effect is only appreciable for very large doses.

So, I think that what Georgio call "crater" that corresponds to true but those surface density would be rather low at reasonable dose. And I am sure that etched glass will be transparent enough.

[Giorgio]

Even if copper will be in single charged ion form, its energy will not be less than 45keV.

And it will hit a glass windows that is at several decimeters and at 90 degree angle from the plasma flow with still enough energy to fuse with the glass itself?
Yeah, sure.

[Giorgio]

So, I think that what Georgio call "crater" that corresponds to true but those surface density would be rather low at reasonable dose. And I am sure that etched glass will be transparent enough.

My point is that copper particles will not possess anymore enough energy when they reach the glass to fuse to the glass in such a way that etching will be the only practical way to remove them from the glass.

[Joseph Chikva]

So, I think that what Georgio call "crater" that corresponds to true but those surface density would be rather low at reasonable dose. And I am sure that etched glass will be transparent enough.

My point is that copper particles will not possess anymore enough energy when they reach the glass to fuse to the glass in such a way that etching will be the only practical way to remove them from the glass.

What is potential difference between the anode and the stainless case (chamber)? Not 45kV?

[Joseph Chikva]

Even if copper will be in single charged ion form, its energy will not be less than 45keV.

And it will hit a glass windows that is at several decimeters

Newton's first law of motion is stated as:

An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

So, if you will not have unbalanced decelerating force acting on copper ion you will get the same effect at even several kilometers.

[D Tibbets]

It sounds like an argument over trivia. What do you mean by etching, what do you mean by fusing? Certainly aluminum and other metels can be deposited on and adhere to glass- is this fusion?. Nitric acid is often used to remove aluminum from telescope mirrors before recoating. Certainly a fine surface smoothness can be maintained. Is this chemical etching? Can you use nitric acid to produce frosted glass? Can you do high grade cleaning of glass without compromising it's transparency or surface smoothness? Yes to all questions.

It all depends on the magnitude of the applied effects (and how many times it is repeated), to so much the basic process or definition of that process.

After all, sanding with a course grit sand paper can produce a course surface. A fine abrasive can produce a very smooth surface. It is the same process. Everything is relative.

Dan Tibbets

[Joseph Chikva]

It sounds like an argument over trivia. What do you mean by etching, what do you mean by fusing? Certainly aluminum and other metels can be deposited on and adhere to glass- is this fusion?. Nitric acid is often used to remove aluminum from telescope mirrors before recoating. Certainly a fine surface smoothness can be maintained. Is this chemical etching? Can you use nitric acid to produce frosted glass? Can you do high grade cleaning of glass without compromising it's transparency or surface smoothness? Yes to all questions.

It all depends on the magnitude of the applied effects (and how many times it is repeated), to so much the basic process or definition of that process.

After all, sanding with a course grit sand paper can produce a course surface. A fine abrasive can produce a very smooth surface. It is the same process. Everything is relative.

Dan Tibbets

Yes, this is talk over trivia. Georgio names "adhesion" as "fusion". Yes, you can polish surface after etching. But I do not think that it would be much necessary.

[Giorgio]

Even if copper will be in single charged ion form, its energy will not be less than 45keV.

And it will hit a glass windows that is at several decimeters

Newton's first law of motion is stated as:

An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

So, if you will not have unbalanced decelerating force acting on copper ion you will get the same effect at even several kilometers.

Funny, you forgot to quote the rest of my post, "a glass windows that is at several decimeters and at 90 degree angle from the plasma flow"
Do you understand the difference? Do you understand that you can't apply Newton first law with something that is at 90 degrees from the direction of motion of the plasma?
Your post perfectly shows why I say that discussing with you is useless.
I wish only that you could understand this.

[Joseph Chikva]

Funny, you forgot to quote the rest of my post, "a glass windows that is at several decimeters and at 90 degree angle from the plasma flow"
Do you understand the difference? Do you understand that you can't apply Newton first law with something that is at 90 degrees from the direction of motion of the plasma?
Your post perfectly shows why I say that discussing with you is useless.
I wish only that you could understand this.

I understand the difference. But pupils in the school firstly learn Newton's First Law and then the rest of mechanics.
90 degrees or 30 degrees or 79 degrees plasma containing lighter particles flows at one direction forming focus and heavier copper ions flowing from anode to cathode passing 45kV of potential difference bombard cathode.
Can you show me any decelerating forces?
Or you think that magnetic field of plasma current a little bending copper ion trajectories also decelerate those? No, my friend. Only: some ions deflecting without deceleration fall then to window with energy not less than 45keV.

As:
Kinetic energy of particles growing by ions at the expense of passing through the potential difference may be lost only via:
• collisions (passing the part of energy to another particles)
or
• radiation.
Distance and angle have nothing to do with KE losses. Particles circulating in orthogonal mag field do not loss their KE if not radiating (synchrotron radiation)
See how work particle storage rings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_ring in which particles can be stored several hours making during this time tremendous quantity or turnings on 360 deg and only synchrotron radiation plays decelerating role. But they move there with energies much more than tens of keVs.
And what distance do those particles pass during that several hours?
What do you think - more or less than sizes of focus fusion device?

[Giorgio]

Joseph, you are just mixing a lot of pieces that cannot be applied to this case. You are also clearly showing that you have no idea on how the FF1 machine works, otherwise you should know that anode and cathode are both enclosed in the copper discharge elements of the FF1 (the anode being the central one and the cathode being the copper rods around it).

As I said, most of the time trying to make a coherent and fruitful discussion with you is (unfortunately) a big waste of time.

[Joseph Chikva]

Joseph, you are just mixing a lot of pieces that cannot be applied to this case. You are also clearly showing that you have no idea on how the FF1 machine works, otherwise you should know that anode and cathode are both enclosed in the copper discharge elements of the FF1 (the anode being the central one and the cathode being the copper rods around it).

As I said, most of the time trying to make a coherent and fruitful discussion with you is (unfortunately) a big waste of time.

Eroded anode being in the center, emitting copper ions which are then accelerated by electric field between anode and cathode and bombarding all around including cathode, window, etc.
You are wasting a time always when talking about fusion.

[Giorgio]

You are wasting a time always when talking about fusion.

Heheh, these words are coming from the same guy that reads nothing, gets informed of nothing but pretends to know everything. Funny as usual Joseph.

[Joseph Chikva]

You are wasting a time always when talking about fusion.

Heheh, these words are coming from the same guy that reads nothing, gets informed of nothing but pretends to know everything. Funny as usual Joseph.

Georgio, why not simply to be glad if you are learning something that did not know yet? If you really are interested in fusion. And everything knows only God.
But I at least know two Newton's laws. And very basic magnetism and something a little bit more. Unlike you.

[Giorgio]

Georgio, why not simply to be glad if you are learning something that did not know yet? If you really are interested in fusion. And everything knows only God.
But I at least know two Newton's laws. And very basic magnetism and something a little bit more. Unlike you.

You probably know them by memory, but you have little idea on how to apply them as you showed now and many times in the past.

Before trying to be a teacher you should try to have the humility of studying the subjects of the discussion. Until than I really have nothing to learn from you.