The information I present is not hard to find.
The lack of curiosity (my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts) is rather amazing given that this is a science/engineering board.
I have to admit though that belief is a wondrous thing. Evidently once you have it you don't need anything else.
Skipjack,
Your solution is truly elegant and insightful. I will believe you are serious when you suggest the same for the most dangerous drug (legal or illegal) commonly available. Alcohol. With tobacco also included in the regime. This self medication stuff has to stop. In America about 1,000 a year die from aspirin overdose (for pot the number is zero for overdose deaths). So aspirin will have to be included as well. Can't have people misusing it.
Oh. Yeah. There is ample evidence that pot users drive more carefully than their impairment warrants (you can look it up). So if we can switch people who have a government permit for alcohol to only permit them pot we can probably lower traffic deaths. We need to force alcohol drinkers to switch to pot. It will be safer for us all. (traffic might move a little slower though - a small price to pay)
There is no social problem that can't be solved if you can apply sufficient government force. The US was founded on just such principles. And that is not a joke. It is sarcasm.
Addiction Is A Brain Disease
Well yes. Ever hear of polydrug use?Most people that consume alcohol are NOT selfmedicating on it. If you drink alcohol because you have problems, you have another problem more.
So what you are saying is that despite the fact that some misuse alcohol denying it to everyone to protect the misusers is a bad idea. I look forward to the convolutions you will need to explain why that is a bad idea for the illegal drugs.
In any case as I keep saying: what I post is not for those who have their minds made up. It is for the next generation:
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." - Max Planck
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Personally, I think your diagnosis may be correct but I am convinced your contagion vector is wrong. I don't think it is the parents that are the abusers, it is the public school system.MSimon wrote: Drug taking is not the problem. It is the underlying problem for which people are taking the drugs that is the problem. We can generically classify that as PTSD. The PTSD in the main is caused by child abuse. Which if my previous analysis is correct is epidemic in the US.
You tell me how to get parents to stop abusing their children. I'm all ears.
Force kids together in places they REALLY don't want to be and the bullying explodes. Eliminate compusary school after 6th grade (or even earlier) and the drug abuse epidemic will dwindle. IMHO.
You may be on to something.KitemanSA wrote:Personally, I think your diagnosis may be correct but I am convinced your contagion vector is wrong. I don't think it is the parents that are the abusers, it is the public school system.MSimon wrote: Drug taking is not the problem. It is the underlying problem for which people are taking the drugs that is the problem. We can generically classify that as PTSD. The PTSD in the main is caused by child abuse. Which if my previous analysis is correct is epidemic in the US.
You tell me how to get parents to stop abusing their children. I'm all ears.
Force kids together in places they REALLY don't want to be and the bullying explodes. Eliminate compusary school after 6th grade (or even earlier) and the drug abuse epidemic will dwindle. IMHO.
(finally a thoughtful response) Thank you Kiteman!
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
No, but as I said, I would be willing to more "freely" legalize drugs, once we have had a few decades of experience with the mode that I have suggested. This will reduce the risk, if things go terribly wrong (since control is maintained and the drugs never end up on the street).Your solution is truly elegant and insightful. I will believe you are serious when you suggest the same for the most dangerous drug (legal or illegal) commonly available. Alcohol. With tobacco also included in the regime. This self medication stuff has to stop.
We have had centuries of experience with alcohol in our society, I think it is diligent to demand a bit more experience with the other drugs before we let them loose unrestrictedly on the general public.
I am all for getting tabacco of the streets, btw. I used to smoke, but I am glad I stoped. It was not worth the money and it sure is not good for your health.
Uhm, sorry but the number I have here says about 50 (52 in 2000).In America about 1,000 a year die from aspirin overdose (for pot the number is zero for overdose deaths). So aspirin will have to be included as well. Can't have people misusing it.
Also, one has to add that A LOT of people are taking aspirin and that frequently and that aspirin, being a freely available drug is often handled carelessly. So little children get access and those probably make a large part of those 52 deaths. Luckily, you have to consume a lot of doses (there it is again) of aspirin for it to be lethal. Overdosing on heroin is a lot easier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin_poisoning
Also, once again I am talking about heroin and cocain, LSD, Meth as well as designer drugs and you are talking about marijuana. It is like talking apples and oranges.
Fifty-two deaths involving single-ingredient aspirin were reported in the United States in 2000; however, in all but three of these cases, the reason for the ingestion of lethal doses was intentional; predominantly suicidal.[16]
We have already had 30 years of experience of freely available drugs in America. It is just that they are distributed by criminals.No, but as I said, I would be willing to more "freely" legalize drugs, once we have had a few decades of experience with the mode that I have suggested
You know: kids have better access to illegal drugs than legal beer. Legalize - for the children. Heh.
Not to worry I have a retired Detective friend who gives the drug war about 5 more years in America. He lobbies Congress. He spends 3 months a year on the Senate and 9 months a year on the House.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
My dear skipjack:
Please document the deaths caused by LSD. I'd like to see that.
BTW how can you be sure it is not a purity/dosage problem both of which are irregular in a black market.
Look up levamisole. Here is a start:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 12,00.html
Please document the deaths caused by LSD. I'd like to see that.
BTW how can you be sure it is not a purity/dosage problem both of which are irregular in a black market.
Look up levamisole. Here is a start:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 12,00.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
I expect drugs legalized overnight would be bad news not because Americans are inherently incapable of coping with them as they do alcohol and safely crossing streets on foot, but because such a strong majority of them have entertained the idea that there's something inherently more hazardous to drugs than alcohol/nicotine/caffeine/etc for "no" benefit in return.
Let us run the numbers:http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0737156120070508
Taking an aspirin every day may help prevent heart disease and stroke but, for a middle-aged man, it is nearly as risky as driving a car or working as a firefighter, researchers said on Tuesday.
While people are poor at assessing true risks, they are often willing to take on those risks in exchange for the benefits -- which can include simply having fun, said Joshua Cohen and Peter Neumann of Tufts-New England Medical Center.
Writing in the journal Health Affairs, they said federal regulators must take the true risks into account, and balance them against the benefits, when deciding whether to approve or withdraw drugs.
People are bad at estimating risk, the researchers said.
"In general, they tend to overestimate the probability of small and especially dreaded risks while underestimating the probability of large risks," Cohen and Neumann wrote.
They calculated the risks of various voluntary actions, starting with deaths associated with taking drugs.
"We included selected drugs for which we could develop a reasonable annual mortality risk estimate," they wrote.
For 50-year-old men, taking an aspirin every day to prevent heart disease and stroke carries a risk of 10.4 deaths per 100,000 men per year over and above their overall death risk.
About 155 million men in America. If 10% are taking a daily aspirin to prevent heart disease that would be 15.5 million or 155 * 100,000.
Or 1,550 male deaths a year. If the number is 1% of the population that would be 155 male deaths a year.
Multiply by 2 to account for females. Now of course not all of them are 50. So you have to account for that.
My estimate is that 200 to 3,000 probably brackets the number. So your number is low. The geometric mean is about 775.
Now look here at the top 15 causes of death in America. Drugs (legal/illegal) don't make that list.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf
Maybe we could get more bang for the buck by focusing on things higher on the list. Say drug war homicides (part of #15).
Or suicide which is #11.
===
(2000) "The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)."
Correction: According to a correction published by the Journal on January 19, 2005, "On page 1240, in Table 2, '400,000 (16.6)' deaths for 'poor diet and physical inactivity' in 2000 should be '365,000 (15.2).' A dagger symbol should be added to 'alcohol consumption' in the body of the table and a dagger footnote should be added with 'in 1990 data, deaths from alcohol-related crashes are included in alcohol consumption deaths, but not in motor vehicle deaths. In 2000 data, 16,653 deaths from alcohol-related crashes are included in both alcohol consumption and motor vehicle death categories."
Source:
Mokdad, Ali H., PhD, James S. Marks, MD, MPH, Donna F. Stroup, PhD, MSc, Julie L. Gerberding, MD, MPH, "Actual Causes of Death in the United States, 2000," Journal of the American Medical Association, (March 10, 2004), G225 Vol. 291, No. 10, p. 1238, 1240.
http://proxy.baremetal.com/csdp.org/research/1238.pdf
Source for Correction: Journal of the American Medical Association, Jan. 19, 2005, Vol. 293, No. 3, p. 298.
===
Maybe we do need to figure out how to wean more people off alcohol. Which as I keep pointing out is the biggest drug problem in the US.
===
Homicides went down 50% (over a period of a few years) with the legalization of alcohol.
===
Drug war deaths. (innocents killed by police) With pictures:
http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/
===
"6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.
Source:
US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition" (Docket #86-22), September 6, 1988, p. 56-57.
http://druglibrary.net/olsen/MEDICAL/YOUNG/young4.html
===
(1996 - NSAIDS) "Each year, use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States." (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)
Source:
Robyn Tamblyn, PhD; Laeora Berkson, MD, MHPE, FRCPC; W. Dale Jauphinee, MD, FRCPC; David Gayton, MD, PhD, FRCPC; Roland Grad, MD, MSc; Allen Huang, MD, FRCPC; Lisa Isaac, PhD; Peter McLeod, MD, FRCPC; and Linda Snell, MD, MHPE, FRCPC, "Unnecessary Prescribing of NSAIDs and the Management of NSAID-Related Gastropathy in Medical Practice," Annals of Internal Medicine (Washington, DC: American College of Physicians, 1997), September 15, 1997, 127:429-438.
http://www.annals.org/content/127/6/429.full.pdf
Citing: Fries, JF, "Assessing and understanding patient risk," Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology Supplement, 1992;92:21-4.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
People do not die of LSD poisoning (at least not according to my brief research), but they do die in accidents caused by LSD. Yes a lot do so in accidents caused by alcohol as well, but LSD can have unpredictable flashbacks months later. About 30% of all LSD users experience those.
These make it extremely difficult to judge when it save for them to drive, e.g. This makes for a very complicated legal situation.
In rare cases LSD can also cause people to get stuck on a trip. A class mate of my wife got stuck on LSD. He now thinks that he is a glass of orange juce and refuses to sleep because someone might want to drink him. It is funny, but no joke, really.
Again, you have not brought a single argument about why my proposal wont work. All you are doing is ranting about it not being free enough. I did however think that you wanted to destroy the drug crime most of all with your idea of legalization. Isnt that so? Why would my solution not work for that?
I also think that my compromise would be much easier to get past lawmakers. A complete legalization as you seem to want it (for some weird reason that I do not understand, other than principle maybe, which would be silly and not worthy of your intellect), will never pass congress, at least not in my lifetime, I am sure. Heck even comparably liberal European countries wont go that far (not the Netherlands and not Portugal either). Even my solution would most likely be considered "to progressive there".
These make it extremely difficult to judge when it save for them to drive, e.g. This makes for a very complicated legal situation.
In rare cases LSD can also cause people to get stuck on a trip. A class mate of my wife got stuck on LSD. He now thinks that he is a glass of orange juce and refuses to sleep because someone might want to drink him. It is funny, but no joke, really.
Well that depends on how you look at it.We have already had 30 years of experience of freely available drugs in America. It is just that they are distributed by criminals.
Again, you have not brought a single argument about why my proposal wont work. All you are doing is ranting about it not being free enough. I did however think that you wanted to destroy the drug crime most of all with your idea of legalization. Isnt that so? Why would my solution not work for that?
I also think that my compromise would be much easier to get past lawmakers. A complete legalization as you seem to want it (for some weird reason that I do not understand, other than principle maybe, which would be silly and not worthy of your intellect), will never pass congress, at least not in my lifetime, I am sure. Heck even comparably liberal European countries wont go that far (not the Netherlands and not Portugal either). Even my solution would most likely be considered "to progressive there".
But we do get a LOT of benefit from prohibition. Kids can get illegal drugs easier than legal beer. We get gang violence.Betruger wrote:I expect drugs legalized overnight would be bad news not because Americans are inherently incapable of coping with them as they do alcohol and safely crossing streets on foot, but because such a strong majority of them have entertained the idea that there's something inherently more hazardous to drugs than alcohol/nicotine/caffeine/etc for "no" benefit in return.
We get the destruction of families for those imprisoned for drug crime. Which leads to the break down of the culture: http://www.issues.org/13.2/courtw.htm
We get $25 bn a year of Federal spending. And about the same amount for the states.
The shredding of search and seizure laws which has spawned the TSA who after all are looking for contraband.
And the worst of all the glorification of gangsta culture which then leads to the popularity of rap "music".
It is really hard to understate the benefits of the current regime. I can't imagine how doing things differently would lead to a better outcome. And that is no joke. It is sarcasm.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Msimon, you are avoiding my questions and you are not going into my argumentation. Instead you keep rambling your statistics, which are not always meaningful and do need context.
Aspirin deaths were 50, as I said.
I am sure that a lot more people are taking aspirin more or less frequently than just for heart desease. I even want to bet that every household has at least one pack at home at all times.
Also, I want to add that most of the aspirin deaths were suicides.
I made what I think is a reasonable proposal that would result in the stop of the drug wars and the protection of the drug users. What is your problem with that? Please dont say "government" because that allone is not enough. I want to know why the government part would be a real problem. I also want to know why a savety transition period of a few decades would be a bad idea. Dont say "because drugs are not bad" because we both know that the truth is not quite so simple.
So please, I am willing to having a reasonable discussion with you. I think that I went a long way towards you. Now please give me the respect to come some way towards me as well.
Aspirin deaths were 50, as I said.
I am sure that a lot more people are taking aspirin more or less frequently than just for heart desease. I even want to bet that every household has at least one pack at home at all times.
Also, I want to add that most of the aspirin deaths were suicides.
I made what I think is a reasonable proposal that would result in the stop of the drug wars and the protection of the drug users. What is your problem with that? Please dont say "government" because that allone is not enough. I want to know why the government part would be a real problem. I also want to know why a savety transition period of a few decades would be a bad idea. Dont say "because drugs are not bad" because we both know that the truth is not quite so simple.
So please, I am willing to having a reasonable discussion with you. I think that I went a long way towards you. Now please give me the respect to come some way towards me as well.
Last edited by Skipjack on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MSimon - I agree with you. But I expect it'd be a very significant problem in practice, in legalizing. Like legalizing guns in some other countries: everyone freaks out and you get some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy effect.
So I probably also agree that generational turnover is one of the best candidate solutions.
So I probably also agree that generational turnover is one of the best candidate solutions.
You are not counting the 2,000 innocents a year killed in the gang war cross fires.I made what I think is a reasonable proposal that would result in the stop of the drug wars and the protection of the drug users. What is your problem with that?
Are you willing to see 2,000 innocents a year killed for a policy that is not working? And that is just in the USA.
Prohibition is fueling:
1. The destruction of Mexico
2. The Taliban
3. Hugo Chavez
4. FARC
5. etc
6. etc
7. etc
It was one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/fe ... a.colombia
The guerrilla group Farc has long been suspected of running the Colombian cocaine industry. But how does it move the drug so readily out of the country? In a special investigation, John Carlin in Venezuela reports on the remarkable collusion between Colombia's rebels and its neighbour's armed forces
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.