Dim Sun Anyone?

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

We see similar effects from the Endangered Species Act. Because finding such a species on a property is unprofitable, land owners who find endangered species on their property kill them, bury them, and remain silent.

So that Act has actually encouraged the destruction of endangered species by forcing the costs on land owners.

Here is a page full of links about the adverse effects.

http://www.akdart.com/esa.html
"The incentives are wrong here. If a rare metal is on my property the value of my land goes up. But if a rare bird is on my property the value of my property goes down."
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Energy ... BG1234.cfm
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

It is one of the undesirable effects of transparency. If no-one knew species were endangered they would not be hunted to extinction by trophy-hunters. So arguably FOE etc should set up strong disinformation and convince everyone that no species is endangered. But in most cases the extinction comes from loss of habitat, so the species would still be at risk.

Tom

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

tomclarke wrote:It is one of the undesirable effects of transparency. If no-one knew species were endangered they would not be hunted to extinction by trophy-hunters. So arguably FOE etc should set up strong disinformation and convince everyone that no species is endangered. But in most cases the extinction comes from loss of habitat, so the species would still be at risk.

Tom
So the duck hunters who collect money for habitat preservation may in fact be doing more for species than laws. And you know them duck hunters is mostly evil right wingers.

And as you point out the evil capitalists like me who are working on ways to produce alternative forms of energy more cheaply will have a greater effect than all the laws that could ever be put on the books.

Now think of the incentives: If government is collecting huge amounts of tax money from CO2 what is their incentive to actually lower the costs of the alternatives? If the collections from CO2 taxes decline they will have to tax alternative energy as well.

In other words you are asking for a perverse incentive system.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

If CO2 is taxed then non-CO2 forms of energy have built-in subsidy distributed from tax revenue - but it is really just implementation of "polluter pays" and neutral to government. At least, it could and should be this.

The CO2 tax rate is set to conserve the common resource (in this case atmosphere) at whatever level is necessary. Trading for CO2 production permits is a pretty good way to do this.

Tom

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Post by KitemanSA »

Tom,
Under your scheme, can the CO2 "polluters" charge farmers a tax on the extra growth their CO2 engenders in the farmer's crops?

In Holland they pipe the CO2 straight from the power plant to the green houses. Sounds like a win-win to me.

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Post by MSimon »

tomclarke wrote:If CO2 is taxed then non-CO2 forms of energy have built-in subsidy distributed from tax revenue - but it is really just implementation of "polluter pays" and neutral to government. At least, it could and should be this.

The CO2 tax rate is set to conserve the common resource (in this case atmosphere) at whatever level is necessary. Trading for CO2 production permits is a pretty good way to do this.

Tom
If we are talking about a common resource then we should be paying for more CO2 because it helps plants and with more plant matter we will get more animals.

And if CO2 taxes come in how soon before we are taxed for breathing?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

And Tom,

You are aware that we get these climate scares about every thirty years no? Warm-Cold-War-Cold-Warm. And why 30 years? That is about the length of a PDO phase.

The PDO has shifted. What are the odds we will be seeing a cold scare in about 20 or 30 years?

My take is that CO2 is being aliased for natural variation. If I am correct the whole green movement is in for it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

tomclarke wrote:If CO2 is taxed then non-CO2 forms of energy have built-in subsidy distributed from tax revenue - but it is really just implementation of "polluter pays" and neutral to government. At least, it could and should be this.

The CO2 tax rate is set to conserve the common resource (in this case atmosphere) at whatever level is necessary. Trading for CO2 production permits is a pretty good way to do this.

Tom
My expectation is that saying the "polluter pays" is misleading. The end user will ultimatly pay directly or through taxes. CO2 production permits/ trading sounds like a shell game to me.

I see three issues:

Is the Earth warming, and if so is it primarily due to CO2?. There seems to be alot of untested assumptions and conviently broad confidence intervals ( 'my model predicted warming so and so, but critics say- but recent measurements do not fit your model, reply- ah yes, but it is just a temperary anomally and will correct to fit my model with time' )

Is the Earth warming a few degrees bad? Except for those living a foot above sea level, the answer is uncertain at best. Will it help or harm coral reefs? Will it help or hurt fish? Will it increase saltwater marshes, is that good? Will it shrink some desserts, enlarge others? Will winters be milder, will hurricanes be stronger, will less hurricaines reach shore? Will crops grow better? When small segments of the enviorment are considered some iffy predictions can be made. How this would balance out over the entire ecosystem is a mixed bag at best and wether there is an overall benifit or detriment is purely dependent on the priorities of the one doing the judging.

Fad science- the press reports sensationist predictions of the 'polar ice completely (pratically completly) melting next year'. Didn't happen. Were there any public retractions- apologies by those alarmists? Serious scientists are certainly trying to make sense of an extreamly complex world, but puplic claimes presented as absolute certainity while the reality is of MUCH less certainity, serves no one other than those who seek to gain profit from the predictions.


Will the Earth warm up, will another Ice Age come, will a killer asteroid hit the Earth? There is high confidence that all of these will happen, possibly many times. Eventially, the Earth will be essetially destroyed by the Sun, and given enough time it could eventualy (befor the Sun fries the Earth)be desimated (life at least- the rocks won't care) by a nearby supernova explosion. The question is what can or should we do about it?
The hysteria about global warming, and the seeming refusel to admit uncertainity, combined with the dire predictions of catrastophy for all is what annoys me. But, despite the annoyiance, it seems that this is how humans gets things done. At least in some countries, along with the excesses, there have been real benifits in terms of water pollution, air pollution, erosion, deforestation, etc, etc.

Also, I can't help but wonder how wind and solar power will handle the optimistic conversion to electric cars. Solar can benifit peak use during the day (if it is not cloudy) but most of the electric cars will be recharging at night. I don't know about wind, except that costal winds tend to peak in the afternoon and late night when the temperature differentials between the land and the sea are greastest. This doesn't argue against the benifits of these power sources, but is just a reminder that thay can only play a minor (eg~20%) role in any overall scheme. To provide more steady grid power with these variable sources, storage of the energy produced is needed. First, more excess capacity would be needed when the sun is shining and the wind blowing- more cost, inefficiencies in converting into stored power and conversion back into grid power introduces more inefficiencies- yet more capacity and cost needed. What storage methods are aviable? Hydroelectric dams are probably the most pratical, but they are currently unpopular, Water towers? It would take alot of them. batteries are not very efficient and have low capacity. Electrolysis of water to store hydrogen and fuel cells to burn it is a possibility, perhaps, but by itself it would be more complex and probably more costly than natural gas power plants. Compressing gas under ground might work in selected locations.
Conservation and accepting variable aviability of electrical supplies would go a long way towards making things workable, but neither seems to be recieving much effort or acceptance now.


Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

pfrit
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Post by pfrit »

MSimon wrote:tom,

Longer growing seasons is a consequence if the AGW theory is correct. The greening of the Sahara is another consequence. Faster plant growth is a known consequence of increased CO2.
Actually, I think the Sahara is supposed to move south with warming. Desertification is faster than the reverse (significantly) so the Sahara grows. However, in my opinion this is beside the point. I am inclined to believe that the Sahara was created, at least in part, by humans protecting sheep who then overgrazed the land and made desert. It has happened since in other areas and seems to fit the facts.

Humans are really good at making deserts. And europeans are equally good at making desserts as well.
What is the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

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Post by tomclarke »

Dan,

Here are some boring replies (perhaps rather obvious) to your three points:
Is the Earth warming a few degrees bad? Except for those living a foot above sea level, the answer is uncertain at best. Will it help or harm coral reefs? Will it help or hurt fish? Will it increase saltwater marshes, is that good? Will it shrink some desserts, enlarge others? Will winters be milder, will hurricanes be stronger, will less hurricaines reach shore? Will crops grow better? When small segments of the enviorment are considered some iffy predictions can be made. How this would balance out over the entire ecosystem is a mixed bag at best and wether there is an overall benifit or detriment is purely dependent on the priorities of the one doing the judging.
An enormous amount of work has been done on known consequences of warming. Hurricanes will be stronger, more frequent - don't live in Florida. Ice melt & water expansion will raise sea level by 10m or so. Not a big deal but extraordinarily expensive for the many countries whose capital cities are near the water line. And mass-migration from those in low-lying coastal area. Climate will change, extreme events become more common. Insurance will go up.

As for the rest - no-one knows. Also no-one knows whether a large perturbation will take climate from is quasi-stationary goldilocks state of last few thousand years and propel it via positive feedback to a new (probably, given history, less pleasant) regime.

But if you were perched high on top of a complex structure known to be unstable would you choose to keep your movements small?
Fad science- the press reports sensationist predictions of the 'polar ice completely (pratically completly) melting next year'. Didn't happen. Were there any public retractions- apologies by those alarmists? Serious scientists are certainly trying to make sense of an extreamly complex world, but puplic claimes presented as absolute certainity while the reality is of MUCH less certainity, serves no one other than those who seek to gain profit from the predictions.
Well I dislike uninformed popular headlines as much as you. But if you condemn science because it is the subject of such you will not have much science left to hold to (including Polywell!).
The issue about uncertainty is dealt with, at length, in a working group of the IPCC. It is not easy for scientists to communicate with politicians. If your best estimate is that something is 90% likely to happen how do you express that? The wrong words and they say "the scientsists don't know, we will wait till they do".

The issue about AGW being validated or invalidated by a few hot or cold years is ironic. the climatologists know all too well how chaotic variations on time scales of years and decades make short-term climate prediction impossible. The AGW science rests on models validated at many levels (cross-validated wherever possible) using histric data over geological timescales as well as more recent time series. The issue of whether these models are skillful or not must, to any thinking person, obviously be very complex. And not done justice by partial reporting on blogs with a political agenda. How do you lead a politician (or the readers of this site, even) through that. Do I need to emulate Simon and say you must have an IQ of >140 to understand it? If so, what do we do with all those who cannot.
Will the Earth warm up, will another Ice Age come, will a killer asteroid hit the Earth? There is high confidence that all of these will happen, possibly many times. Eventially, the Earth will be essetially destroyed by the Sun, and given enough time it could eventualy (befor the Sun fries the Earth)be desimated (life at least- the rocks won't care) by a nearby supernova explosion. The question is what can or should we do about it?
The hysteria about global warming, and the seeming refusel to admit uncertainity, combined with the dire predictions of catrastophy for all is what annoys me. But, despite the annoyiance, it seems that this is how humans gets things done. At least in some countries, along with the excesses, there have been real benifits in terms of water pollution, air pollution, erosion, deforestation, etc, etc.
earth warm up - already happenned, how fast it continues will have big effect on our children.

ice age come - possibly not for millions of years, if we move to new higher temperature regime. But sudden instabilities have characterised earth climate history other than last 10K years, and we seem determined to destory the current quasi-equilibrium so who can tell?

killer asteroid hit the earth? Probabilities well understood and expected time to strike is v long (100K years + I think). Though it depends on what you define as killer. So this is a very small risk to our children (or their children).

Finally - on refusal to admit uncertainty - it is rather the reverse. The one thing we are certian of is that putting masive quantities of fossilised carbon in the atmosphere puts us into an unprecedented (in terms of speed of change) regime. Earth has not been like this for milions of years, at which time climate was quite different. And it (the CO2) is not easy to reverse. So there is lots of uncertainty. While lives are uncertain, we do not normally gamble on quite such a global scale. Previous environmental catastrophes (history is littered with them) have been geographically local. Civilisation has continued, somewhere.

This one is truly global.

pfrit
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Post by pfrit »

tomclarke wrote:Ice melt & water expansion will raise sea level by 10m or so.
Brief expansion. Ice melt is only an issue for ice that is on land, not floating(Greenland and Antartica). Water expansion should not raise the level significantly, if at all, as the thermocline will not lower and the difference between the densities of a temp change around 4 degrees celcius is very small. The current estimate for water level rising has just been changed from 24m to 11m.
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Post by tomclarke »

Arctic no problem I agree. Antarctic is problem:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 020209.php

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Actually, I think the Sahara is supposed to move south with warming.
I stand corrected:
The Sahara's desert climate is believed to have been established over five million years ago during the Pliocene Epoch. Since then the Sahara has been subject to short- to medium-length dry and humid conditions, which have contributed to the unique climate of the Sahara today. For the past 2,000 years, the climate of the Sahara has remained quite consistent, except for a period of time in the 16th and 18th century when there was a "Little Ice Age" in Europe. This ice age significantly increased the amount of precipitation over the whole Sahara Desert until around the 19th century. By this time, the climate had become quite stable again and resembled the desert climate of today.

http://library.thinkquest.org/16645/the ... a_cl.shtml
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

tom,

You keep worrying about what you admit is an uncertain event - warming is natural/CO2 caused, it will be better/worse for the plants and humans. While discounting the certainty of what reduced/higher cost energy supplies will do to human populations.

Not to mention that the increase in trees in North America is directly due to high energy farming and alternatives to wood heat.

It reminds me of the Germans of the 1930s who were worried about lebensraum. It turned out to be a bogus fear. It did lead to the deaths of millions.

And speaking of Germans: immediately near the end and post WW2 a lot of German forests got stripped due to the lack of coal. Humans will adapt. You may not like the results. And in fact the results may be anti-environmental.

You stress humans and they will stress the environment. Please. Don't go there. TANSTAAFL.

And what will governments do if they become addicted to CO2 taxes and some of the low CO2 energy production devices become significant? The governments will find other resources to consume. The result will be stresses on humans. And you know where that leads.
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tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

Simon,

A small correction.

GW is not an uncertain event.

GW is a certain event with very uncertain consequences.

As for stressing humans => stressing environment. Humans are a good deal more adaptable than this. We have got used to nearly free energy for transportation. This has led to lots of things, many good, some bad. The basics - food, water, shelter consume a small fraction of energy consumption now, and with better technology could consume even less. The market has never tried to minimise energy consumption - when it does this you will be surprised at how easily things can change.

We can massively reduce energy consumption for food manufacture simply by eating the (small) amount of animal protein that our bodies are biologically adapted to use. Result: healthier population, less stress on medical resources.

Sure, it is uncertain how we adapt to changed costs. But less uncertain than the changes induced by GW. And should increased costs prove catastrophic: "Voila!" we can change them immediately. this is not true for GW.


I agree that these necessary transnational taxes must not be a cash cow for governments. Frankly I think the politics to get them at all will be intensely painful and difficult. But they are the least worst option - and international agreement is the only way to manage common pool resources. (Ownership => international agreement, so this is not an exception).

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