10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Joseph Chikva]

Google tells also that you can buy enriched nickel from URENCO http://www.urenco.com/custom/66/Enriche ... index.aspx .

Very well.
Rossi can buy and not enrich by himself. It is more closely to reality.
Now the second big question: for what?
As if he did not know the nature of process as he claimed earlier, he also would not know which isotope involved in reaction.

[Kahuna]

FYI, here is Krivit's long promised Report #3 on Rossi/E-Cat tech:

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/NET370.shtml

Krivit is very verbose and much in the report is "old news," but there is some new material as well. Steam qulaity is front-and-center as one might expect, but he includes a lot of material from third parties on other related subjects.

Although, he does not come right out and say it, I think it is pretty clear that he thinks Rossi is a fraud (and Rossi thinks Krivit is a clown). No love lost between these two.

But Krivit, from other evidence, is clearly not a clown. What does other evidence say about likelihood of Rossi being a fraud?

I agree that Rossi is more likley a fraud than Krivit a clown.

At this point, the main issue in my mind is Defkalion which has had lots of time with the E-Cat and seems to still be moving forward in a well-orgainized and well-funded manner. They should have had the time, money and expertise to determine that the E-Cat is bogus by now and yet they move forward, not withstanding all the public doubts over the Rossi demos. There appears to be three reasons for thier behavior:

1) They all have been duped by Rossi (seems somewhat unlikley at this point even if it was once true).
2) They know something we don't know (i.e. the E-Cat is for real).
3) They (along with Ampenergo) are part of pretty massive Rossi-lead fraud for money.

Any of the three is worth the wait IMO. #1 will lead to some egg on some very well groomed faces, #2 the beginnning of a LENR revolution and #3 a massive perp-walk to prisions all over the world.

Rossi keeps saying the 1MW plant is on schedule, so maybe the wiat really will only be 2-3 months.

[cg66]

On the subject of isotopes - SIMS data provided by Rossi. If i'm reading the graphs correctly there is more going on with decrease in elements with amu in the 50s (Mn and Fe?) than heavier isotopes of nickel.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/ ... ixd4.shtml

[ladajo]

Google tells also that you can buy enriched nickel from URENCO http://www.urenco.com/custom/66/Enriche ... index.aspx .

Very well.
Rossi can buy and not enrich by himself. It is more closely to reality.
Now the second big question: for what?
As if he did not know the nature of process as he claimed earlier, he also would not know which isotope involved in reaction.

I thought that Rossi at some point said he did figure out his own special enrichment process (not that I believe it). I'll have to look for that reference.

[KitemanSA]

Besides, i dislike your arrogant tone, silly kid.

And well you should, I was being an a$$. My apologies.

None the less you made assumptions regarding how this would work with Nickel based on Uranium and that does show a lack of consideration.

It should also be remembered that the Calutron project at Oak Ridge was a WAR project. Efficiency and cost was immaterial. To assume this would be the same for a commercial venture makes no sense.

For example, properly done, a large percentage of the energy needed to accelerate the ions can be retrieved at the other side by direct conversion.

Also, a large part of the energy used at OakRige was for electro-magnets. Small, zero (ok, minor) energy input superconducting magnets are quite cheap these days. Indeed, if he has an "in" with a medical facility, he could fit a seperator inside a typical 3T MRI coil and get the magnet virtually for free on off peak hours.

None of this says he DOES, it just disproves that he CAN"T or that it necessarily would be very expensive.

[KitemanSA]

Kiteman, before you call electromagnetic separation easy, take a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calutron

Folks,
I do not recall EVER saying that seperation was EASY. I did note that Rossi said the ENRICHMENT he performed did not increase the cost of his fuel significantly. For example, if I am spending $50 per gram to make nano-powder Ni and it costs $55 to make ENRICHED nano-powder Ni, that is not CHEAP but it is not significantly more expensive either.
Making U+6 from UF6 seems MUCH more difficult than making Ni+2 from NiCl2. Also, providing seperation between isotopes that have mass differences 10 time greater than those for Uranium has just got to be easier too.

Oops!
Just read more deeply into the Calutron and it looks like they started with UCl4, not UF6. But as someone thoughtfully pointed out, the chem-sep stage is probably a trivial part of the whole.

[Luzr]

At this point, the main issue in my mind is Defkalion which has had lots of time with the E-Cat and seems to still be moving forward in a well-orgainized and well-funded manner.

3) They (along with Ampenergo) are part of pretty massive Rossi-lead fraud for money.

Well, "seems to be" is the really correct observation. How much hard would be to pretend all those things Defkalion/Ampenegro claims?

Do we have any independent confirmation they are real?

[KitemanSA]

As far as I know, the Uranium process would start with gaseous UF6 which requires the removal of 6 fluorine and the generation of U+6 ions. That takes AT LEAST 3 times the energy of Ni+2, no?

May be yes and may be no.

Actually, no, since ORNL started wiuth UCl4 not UF6!

But the matter is not in energy that has to be spent.
But for enrichment process very serious and specific facilities are required.

For Uranium, I will concur. For Nickel this is not proven. I suspect I could build an "enrichment" plant for under a couple of $100k, especially if I had an MRI facility to work in.
As a fallback option, please note that Neodymium magnets are permanent (no power needed) and provide ~5x the field strength of the ORNL Calutron. They are not cheap, but they use NO power and can be limited to the actual arc of the seperator rather than encasing the entire seperator completely.

And Rossi with his two friends by definition can not have such facilities (coffee machine).

Everyone else recognizes that the "coffee pot" is just a joke objection. Please don't use it in a for-real discussion. Please?

May in Italy or somewhere else in Europe is the firm conducting such service: you would give them some metal with natural isotope composition and they return you the product enriched with requested isotope?

If yes, it's real. If no, I have already said you that you can discuss even antimatter production process. That also is based on well known principles but very difficult and costly in production.

Sorry, making that comparison is a strawman. The process for anti-matter requires HUGE energies. This process uses easily available components and voltages that kids (knowledgable kids, but kids none-the-less) work with.

And why Rossi would enrich Ni if from the beginning by his claim he did not know what type of reaction occurs?

Remember, Rossi built on Piantelli's work and may have seen that while all would react to a degree, the higher isotopes would react more. Since the Ni58 reaction would produce a long lived radio-isotope, he may have wanted to limit the amount there to react, and the drive inbtensity to lower the probability that what was there would react. In order to then produce sufficient reactions to make the system worth using, the percentage of the higher isotopes would need to be increased. ... Perhaps...

We are discussing nothing.

You may be. I am discussing "perhaps"!

[KitemanSA]

It was previously discussed that Rossi acquired nano-powder from a supplier,
(I would have to dig for the info) but assuming this is true, why in the world
would he attempt to enrich nano-powder. This makes no sense at all
as the powder would be melted or sublimed during evaporation or sputtering
completely loosing its nano structure (which he would have paid for).
For this high purity sputter targets or bulk pure Ni would make more sense,
but not nano-powder, or am I missing something??

This is one reason I kind of think that if he is enriching the powder he is using something more like my "konjecture"d micro-centrifugal method rather than this calutron option.
Conversely, he may have worked with his supplier to develop a low cost means of enriching the nano-powder at the supplier's facility.

[KitemanSA]

This thread tells quite much about us. We are fighting with each other using strong words without practically any knowledge. Its like shooting without aiming.

Ready! . . . Shoot! . . . Aim!

The first thing to do in my mind is to do at least some background study before creating strong opinions. For example, trying "Nickel isotope enrichment" in a search engine. At first you find scientific articles and then quite comprehensive postings. Google tells also that you can buy enriched nickel from URENCO http://www.urenco.com/custom/66/Enriche ... index.aspx .

If Urenco seperates out the 58Ni from the rest, what do they do with the rest? Isn't that exactly what Rossi wants? The rest?

It looks like Rossi tries to discourage independent replications of his work. At first the whole thing looks were much like a scam. Secondly there are secret ingredients and isotope enrichments. And of course radiation and a possibility of dangerous instability.

I recently came of the opinion that if Fleischman and Pons had done effectively what Rossi has done (tantalizing non-scientific demonstrations with "secret sauces") they may still be in the business studying thier system rather than being hounded out the the "scientific community". Just maybe, Rossi's studies into the philosophy of science are paying off?

Where are your replications? I have seen just a video about a water kettle. Don't look at me. I am just a lurker without a laboratory. And I don't have strong opinions about this.

We should be looking at the industrial activity to find out the truth of Rossi's eCat. Scammers have just PR. They don't have expensive industrial facilities and commercial contracts. Money and material is not flowing. It would be nice to have an independent verification that there is a factory in Greece - a real one, not a scaffolding or a sham.

Yup, and it would be nice if someone could actually find the US factory for the reactors.

[Joseph Chikva]

For Nickel this is not proven. I suspect I could build an "enrichment" plant for under a couple of $100k, especially if I had an MRI facility to work in.

I do not know what is "MRI facility" but very doubt that you for this cost can build even heavy water (deuterium) production facilities at significant quantities.

And ok, further I will not recall coffee machine.
As in fact Mr. Rossi less interesting for me.

[KitemanSA]

Google tells also that you can buy enriched nickel from URENCO http://www.urenco.com/custom/66/Enriche ... index.aspx .

Very well.
Rossi can buy and not enrich by himself. It is more closely to reality.
Now the second big question: for what?
As if he did not know the nature of process as he claimed earlier, he also would not know which isotope involved in reaction.

Rossi worked with Focardi who worked with Piantelli where a lot of this might have been learned.

As for what, let us speculate a bit.

Suppose that the process Rossi uses reacts with a higher probability as a function of the number is un-paired neutrons. Ni58 has two (2), Ni60 has 4, Ni62 has 6 and Ni 64 has 8. There may also be a factor regarding drive power. Indeed, the function could me much steeper than a simple liner function, like Xe^(nt).

Since Rossi obviously wants his unit to be non-radioactive, he would want to minimize any reaction that produces a radio-active isotope (or at least a long lived one that would show in the final "ash". The only one of the stable Ni isotopes that does that when a proton is added is Ni58. So naturally he would want to keep Ni58 reactions to a minimum.
So, he gets the tailings of the Ni58 seperation materials, has them formed into nano-powder, and the keeps his machine at ~100C to keep the drive temperature low enough to avoid reacting MUCH of the Ni58 that remains. Just a thought.

[KitemanSA]

I do not know what is "MRI facility"

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI).

but very doubt that you for this cost can build even heavy water (deuterium) production facilities at significant quantities.

You are entitled to your uninformed opinon!
So am I.

[Joseph Chikva]

As for what, let us speculate a bit.

Suppose that the process Rossi uses reacts...

Thanks, I can not.
For this special skill is required. Which I have not.
You have not and mainly - Rossi has not.

I can not speculate about things that I do not know: polaritons, Rydberg matter, etc.

[Joseph Chikva]

I do not know what is "MRI facility"

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI).

but very doubt that you for this cost can build even heavy water (deuterium) production facilities at significant quantities.

You are entitled to your uninformed opinon!
So am I.

Yes, we both are entitled to uninformed opinion. But my opinion is well stated in this case. As I am engineer and work for some companies interested in creation of a new production facilities here in my country.
So, I think that better can estimate the capital cost of embodiment of ideas. But certainly can be mistaken as well. But not in this case.