Crunching the numbers

[Skipjack]

GIT, just do a search, any search on NIF with google. Even NIFs own website talks about its nuclear weapons simulation application. It has always been mostly a defense programme. It was only sold to the public as a energy programme.

[Joseph Chikva]

Joey,
The distinction is between "inertial confinement" as a technology and "NIF" and its DoE predecessors as facilities.

NIF (national Ignition Facility), LIF (Light Ions Fusion) and HIF (Heavy Ions Fusion) all are inertial confinement approaches which all mean the repeated mini thermonuclear explosions caused by pumping of energy into the corresponding hohlraum.
Yes, all hohlraums we can consider as mini (micro) H-bombs and by idea certainly we can test (simulate) some full size H-bomb designs.
I do not know how expedient and usefull this work is for DOD. Personally me have very reasonable doubt.

[Joseph Chikva]

It was only sold to the public as a energy programme.

How you would like the explanation that NIF was sold as defensive program only for justifying of its unsuccessfulness in the first and main work - namly for energy production?
Not amusing to hear about well-known for all "secret"?

[Skipjack]

It was only sold to the public as a energy programme.

How you would like the explanation that NIF was sold as defensive program only for justifying of its unsuccessfulness in the first and main work - namly for energy production?
Not amusing to hear about well-known for all "secret"?

No, if you looked up the actual history of the project, you would find that it was sold as a simulator for nuclear thermal devices from the very beginning.

[Joseph Chikva]

It was only sold to the public as a energy programme.

How you would like the explanation that NIF was sold as defensive program only for justifying of its unsuccessfulness in the first and main work - namly for energy production?
Not amusing to hear about well-known for all "secret"?

No, if you looked up the actual history of the project, you would find that it was sold as a simulator for nuclear thermal devices from the very beginning.

Very expensive simulator. And what is "nuclear thermal device"?
In my understanding inertial confinement approach always was considered as repetitive explosion of very small H-bombs initiated by external pulse energy in either form: laser or particles beam.
So, if you want you can simulate rather big H-bomb explosion. Certainly if you would reach ignition of hohlraum.

[ladajo]

That's silly. NIF is not a weapons research project. The lasers are more than 5 generations old and can't be used as weapons. You need to start parsing out what people say in order to get research funds and what is actually the case. It was never the case that NIF had defense applications. It doesn't. That's what the Senators were told to get the funding. All the real laser defense work happens at Kirtland and has for decades.

Dude. It has nothing to do with "Laser" research. It is about nuclear weapons design and testing, to include existing warhead simulations for use viability as they age.

You really goofed on this.

[ladajo]

NIF has always been a weapons research project. Just not the type of weapons you're thinking about.

With the signing of the Comprehensive Test Ban treaty we needed methods to ensure that our nukes were still reliable and also a potential means of designing and testing new nukes virtually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockpile_stewardship

Exactly that is what they are using it for. The energy component was always an afterthought.

NIF doesn't need laser upgrades for the people working there to do these calculations. If NIF were closed down, many of these same folks would just move over to Sandia or some such and continue doing stewardship, so stewardship is not a rationalization for NIF, nor was it the reason it was built.

Conversely, NIF was designed during the Cold War when a death ray was being sought and Senators were sold on the project based upon the then interest in all things Star Wars.

You are completely wrong. Read the NIF Facility Mission Statement.

[ladajo]

If so, that is the most indistinct and unclear project. Have you any idea what type of weapon system are they developing?
Yes, you can say "secret information".
But I can not imagine what can be hiden behind well known facilities built on base of rather old idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility

it is for testing nukes without nukes...

Ok thanks.
But I understand Russians when they talk something like: "We can not win in technology race in precession guided weapons. We even start losing to Chinese. So, we should further improve our nuke fist".
But have US the need of improvement the weapon that will never used?

It is more about the viability of existing weapons in the inventory. As the weapon core ages, testing must be done to ensure it is still viable. This is in simple terms. There is more to it, but I hesitate to comment. Think in terms of understanding that as a warhead ages, some compesations must be made to acheive the required/desired detonation characteristics if you want to use it. And, also understand that you can also determine when to retire the warhead or remanufacture it. Do some googling on weapons stewardship.

[ladajo]

Joey,
The distinction is between "inertial confinement" as a technology and "NIF" and its DoE predecessors as facilities.

NIF (national Ignition Facility), LIF (Light Ions Fusion) and HIF (Heavy Ions Fusion) all are inertial confinement approaches which all mean the repeated mini thermonuclear explosions caused by pumping of energy into the corresponding hohlraum.
Yes, all hohlraums we can consider as mini (micro) H-bombs and by idea certainly we can test (simulate) some full size H-bomb designs.
I do not know how expedient and usefull this work is for DOD. Personally me have very reasonable doubt.

It happens to work very well for weapons work.

[ladajo]

If NIF were closed down, many of these same folks would just move over to Sandia or some such

NIF is run by Lawrence Livermore. Why would anyone go to Sandia?
I do not think you actually know what/why NIF is. It is apparent from your posts that you really don't know anything real about it.

[Joseph Chikva]

It happens to work very well for weapons work.

If it happens to work very well for power generation too.

[ladajo]

https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/missions/

Top of the list:

National Security
How can we ensure the nation's security without nuclear weapons testing? Maintaining the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile as a deterrent against foreign aggression has been a mainstay of national policy since the end of World War II. No new nuclear weapons are currently being built, however, and the existing weapons cannot be tested under a nuclear testing moratorium established by President George H.W. Bush in 1992. To ensure the continuing reliability of the nuclear stockpile, Lawrence Livermore and other national laboratories are developing sophisticated supercomputer simulations to determine the effects of aging on nuclear weapons components as part of the National Nuclear Security Administration's Stockpile Stewardship Program. NIF will be able to provide data for those simulations by replicating the conditions that exist inside a thermonuclear weapon.

and as an afterthought at the very end, more marketing spin:

In addition, the Photon Science & Applications program is developing a number of innovative technologies for homeland security and national defense.

NIF has always been about thermonuclear weapons research.
The Sharks with Lasers and Fusion Energy bits are simply an add-on.
If the Fusion thing does not play out, then NIF will still be secure in the thermonuclear weapons work it was built to support.

[Skipjack]

It happens to work very well for weapons work.

If it happens to work very well for power generation too.

No it does not!

[ladajo]

You guys really crack me up sometimes.

[ladajo]

Joe,
Read this:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/missions/ ... _security/

and this:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/missions/ ... _security/

Any questions?

Thought not.