Absolutely. But it is less often that inveterate BSers advance the human condition.Axil wrote:
History can be extremely forgiving if you are a genius. So much so, that most people seem to have forgotten that the following five geniuses were massive bad guys when they were alive and kicking. Petty fights, driving people to suicide, and even electrocuting an elephant – you don’t need to be a nice guy to advance the human condition.
1. Thomas Edison
2. Nikola Tesla
3. Ludwig van Beethoven
4. Robert Hooke
5. Isaac Newton
10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)
From my perspective, several people have reached the same judgement based on substantial evidence. You, then, nitpick, or refuse to accept this evidence because it is not Aristotelian proof. You are surprised when others point out the strength of the case in the hope you will be able to weigh the evidence for yourself.KitemanSA wrote: I find it interesting that y'all feel such a need to prove yourselves right in support of your rush to judgement.
I find it distressing that I have wasted this much time pointing out the obvious flaws in your "logic".
tomclarke,
Judging from the various sites that cover LENR, most people think it is real. Time will tell but it looks like you protest too much. Getting worried are you?
In fact, Kiteman has got it right. You are confused, thinking yourself and four other pathological skeptics on this site make up some kind of majority.From my perspective, several people have reached the same judgement based on substantial evidence.
Judging from the various sites that cover LENR, most people think it is real. Time will tell but it looks like you protest too much. Getting worried are you?
Rossi said it didn't ship. Rossi, not me. The motivation was to point out what Rossi said.Axil wrote:You Rossi haters know more about Rossi’s business than the most fanatic Rossi fan; what is the motivation?seedload wrote:Axil, the 1MW reactor was just recently spotted in a video sitting in the same place it was 6 months ago. Rossi said it didn't ship and won't for another couple months because of changes requested by the customer.Axil wrote: Rossi has stated that his 1 MW reactors was delivered to a military customer. You don’t choose to believe him.
You confuse me.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
Yeah, that is probably it. A bunch of fission jocks hanging out on an alternative fusion board just so that we can hate on cold fusion. Makes sense.Axil wrote:Could it be that you’re a crew of ex-Navy nuclear reactor jocks who hate to see that old fission horse die?
More Fukashimas! Go Uranium 235!
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
Parallel,parallel wrote:tomclarke,In fact, Kiteman has got it right. You are confused, thinking yourself and four other pathological skeptics on this site make up some kind of majority.From my perspective, several people have reached the same judgement based on substantial evidence.
Judging from the various sites that cover LENR, most people think it is real. Time will tell but it looks like you protest too much. Getting worried are you?
"most people" are not habitants of LENR fan-sites. If you use content of the latter as your idea of what is normal it is not surprising you have a very skewed view of the world.
This still going. Haha! I thought that even the most faithful Rossi believers were having doubts.
Yeah, Kite's many responses come across as sophistry.
1. He claims to be a disinterested party - the jury no less - but then expends considerable energy pooh-poohing or constructing elaborate counter theories to explain way any evidence that puts Rossi in a bad light.
2. He demands "facts" - i.e. absolute, undeniable, indubitable evidence. There is of course no such thing. There will always be a degree of uncertainty about even the strongest evidence.
And Kite could, if he chooses, keep on this tack forever, even were Rossi convicted of fraud: "He's a bad businessman, not a fraudster", "The ecats work, but not reliably enough to mass produce", "Okay, prove, with actual facts, that he wasn't set up by Big Oil!" etc...
Yeah, Kite's many responses come across as sophistry.
1. He claims to be a disinterested party - the jury no less - but then expends considerable energy pooh-poohing or constructing elaborate counter theories to explain way any evidence that puts Rossi in a bad light.
2. He demands "facts" - i.e. absolute, undeniable, indubitable evidence. There is of course no such thing. There will always be a degree of uncertainty about even the strongest evidence.
And Kite could, if he chooses, keep on this tack forever, even were Rossi convicted of fraud: "He's a bad businessman, not a fraudster", "The ecats work, but not reliably enough to mass produce", "Okay, prove, with actual facts, that he wasn't set up by Big Oil!" etc...
Worried? How silly. If Rossi has invented a process that will provide abundant cheap energy to the entire world, then any one of us would be tremendously happy to be wrong. What's to worry about.parallel wrote:tomclarke,In fact, Kiteman has got it right. You are confused, thinking yourself and four other pathological skeptics on this site make up some kind of majority.From my perspective, several people have reached the same judgement based on substantial evidence.
Judging from the various sites that cover LENR, most people think it is real. Time will tell but it looks like you protest too much. Getting worried are you?
You aren't even good at assigning motivation to us. You should say that we are just weakly agreeing with the dogma of modern science knowing that if we are right then we won't be disappointed but that if we are wrong the world will benefit greatly. More likely than being pathologically skeptical, we are just emotionally protecting ourselves against disappointment.
Either that or we are actually considering what Rossi claims and finding it incredibly unconvincing.
BTW parallel. You still haven't responded. Do you know what Rossi claims in his patent and in his paper on his 'journal'? Do you know that he claimed radioactive isotopes in the reactor as verified by studies of the ash? Do you know that he claimed FISSION products in the reactor as verified by studies of the ash? Do you know that he claimed the majority of the energy produced to be from radioactive decay of isotopes produced? Do you know that he claimed three body reactions producing radioactive isotopes of Zinc?
Do you know that he also claims that if you blow this boiling mess of radioactive crap up, that there is no radiation released?
This is from HIS PATENT! This is from HIS PAPER! This is from HIS WEBSITE! Do you know this stuff?
A reasonable person with a rudimentary knowledge of nuclear physics would be skeptical. It offends against anything reasonable.
Do you know that he now claims something completely different?
Do you know that he now claims that only NI62 and NI64 react? Does it make you wonder how he got all that radioactive ash that he claimed to have analyzed? Do you wonder where the Zinc came from - the Zinc he claimed was produced and verified through analysis? Do you know that he claims 30% production of transmuted copper? Do you know that to explain only NI62 and NI64 creating that much copper than he now claims to have ALSO invented a remarkable new method of isotopic enrichment that increased the solely reactive isotopes of NI62 and NI64 to the appropriate levels to create that much copper? Do you know that to create that much copper, the amount of isotopic enrichment must be profound? Do you even know how hard it is to isotopically enrich stuff?
Do you understand why his demonstrations are unconvincing? Do you understand the issues of the amount of steam produced? Do you wonder why the hose is always in a bucket or going down a drain? Do you know that any water that escapes in the hose causes dramatic differences in the results? Do you even wonder why the hose is going into the other room in the first place? Does it bother you that Rossi 'controls' his reactor using only the exit temperature of the steam? Does it bother you that the changes in that temperature are so small that it does not seem conceivable that this could be a control mechanism at all? Does it bother you that Rossi is seen intensely studying the data when the data isn't changing at all and then adjusting things based on this unchanging data?
Does it bother you that his tests are so unconvincing when they could so easily be convincing - longer test, no phase change, independent instrumentation?
Does it bother you that his claims of production facilities have always appeared to be false? That he wouldn't reveal any info on where in the US these were being produced but continuously said they were produced in the US? He said he was IN THE US FACTORY? Does it bother you that now, when investigated, he claims that there was not a US factory but one is planned, a robotic one for that matter. Does it bother you that a reasonable person would say that he lied about the production?
Does it bother you that he lied about having patent protection in 90 countries?
Does it bother you that he won't even defend his EPO patent application with additional design information but rather prefers to send links to NyTekNik web stories about his demos?
No, Parallel, we are not pathological. There are REASONS for our being skeptical. The fact that you ignore them says a lot more about you than it does about us.
Regards
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
You left out some details...seedload wrote:Worried? How silly. If Rossi has invented a process that will provide abundant cheap energy to the entire world, then any one of us would be tremendously happy to be wrong. What's to worry about.parallel wrote:tomclarke,In fact, Kiteman has got it right. You are confused, thinking yourself and four other pathological skeptics on this site make up some kind of majority.From my perspective, several people have reached the same judgement based on substantial evidence.
Judging from the various sites that cover LENR, most people think it is real. Time will tell but it looks like you protest too much. Getting worried are you?
You aren't even good at assigning motivation to us. You should say that we are just weakly agreeing with the dogma of modern science knowing that if we are right then we won't be disappointed but that if we are wrong the world will benefit greatly. More likely than being pathologically skeptical, we are just emotionally protecting ourselves against disappointment.
Either that or we are actually considering what Rossi claims and finding it incredibly unconvincing.
BTW parallel. You still haven't responded. Do you know what Rossi claims in his patent and in his paper on his 'journal'? Do you know that he claimed radioactive isotopes in the reactor as verified by studies of the ash? Do you know that he claimed FISSION products in the reactor as verified by studies of the ash? Do you know that he claimed the majority of the energy produced to be from radioactive decay of isotopes produced? Do you know that he claimed three body reactions producing radioactive isotopes of Zinc?
Do you know that he also claims that if you blow this boiling mess of radioactive crap up, that there is no radiation released?
This is from HIS PATENT! This is from HIS PAPER! This is from HIS WEBSITE! Do you know this stuff?
A reasonable person with a rudimentary knowledge of nuclear physics would be skeptical. It offends against anything reasonable.
Do you know that he now claims something completely different?
Do you know that he now claims that only NI62 and NI64 react? Does it make you wonder how he got all that radioactive ash that he claimed to have analyzed? Do you wonder where the Zinc came from - the Zinc he claimed was produced and verified through analysis? Do you know that he claims 30% production of transmuted copper? Do you know that to explain only NI62 and NI64 creating that much copper than he now claims to have ALSO invented a remarkable new method of isotopic enrichment that increased the solely reactive isotopes of NI62 and NI64 to the appropriate levels to create that much copper? Do you know that to create that much copper, the amount of isotopic enrichment must be profound? Do you even know how hard it is to isotopically enrich stuff?
Do you understand why his demonstrations are unconvincing? Do you understand the issues of the amount of steam produced? Do you wonder why the hose is always in a bucket or going down a drain? Do you know that any water that escapes in the hose causes dramatic differences in the results? Do you even wonder why the hose is going into the other room in the first place? Does it bother you that Rossi 'controls' his reactor using only the exit temperature of the steam? Does it bother you that the changes in that temperature are so small that it does not seem conceivable that this could be a control mechanism at all? Does it bother you that Rossi is seen intensely studying the data when the data isn't changing at all and then adjusting things based on this unchanging data?
Does it bother you that his tests are so unconvincing when they could so easily be convincing - longer test, no phase change, independent instrumentation?
Does it bother you that his claims of production facilities have always appeared to be false? That he wouldn't reveal any info on where in the US these were being produced but continuously said they were produced in the US? He said he was IN THE US FACTORY? Does it bother you that now, when investigated, he claims that there was not a US factory but one is planned, a robotic one for that matter. Does it bother you that a reasonable person would say that he lied about the production?
Does it bother you that he lied about having patent protection in 90 countries?
Does it bother you that he won't even defend his EPO patent application with additional design information but rather prefers to send links to NyTekNik web stories about his demos?
No, Parallel, we are not pathological. There are REASONS for our being skeptical. The fact that you ignore them says a lot more about you than it does about us.
Regards
Do you know that out of 13 tests designed to demonstrate proof of concept using (usually very accurate) flow calorimetry, all had at least one of:
phase change issues
low deltaT issues
output measurement siting issues.
These are trivial ways to get false positive results, and also trivial to avoid. Rossi repeated the experiments 13+ times, with different setups, and many people advising, yet managed always to incorporate obvious false positive methodology! Different false positives in different tests. And he is, he says, an expert in the use of thermocoiuples:
Wow, he is clever...I know very well the thermoelectric issue, because I made a patent exactly for high temperature [thermoelectrics],” Rossi wrote. “I worked for years, from 1996 through 2000 in this field, and applied them to engines, power generators, boilers, I worked [on contracts] for the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense in this field, through Leonardo Technologies Inc. … I made with my hands thermocouples with a very particular directional fusion I had invented, obtaining a 100 Watts set very, very good, tested in the University of New Hampshire in 1998.
Last edited by tomclarke on Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Which just shows that you haven't understood anything the entire time. Personally, I would love to be wrong about Rossi. Being wrong would mean the world would be a much better place. Being right would mean nothing.KitemanSA wrote:I find it interesting that y'all feel such a need to prove yourselves right in support of your rush to judgement.
The argument is about your continued assumption about my "rush to judgement". I am presenting reasons for my judgement and you are dismissing them based on unlikely alternate scenarios. My judgements are based on the likely and you dismiss them based on the unlikely. I believe my judgement to be considered - not rushed. In response you call me ignorant and imply an inability to reason. The continued need for me to engage is based on your insults to my ability to think. Basically, your trolling was successful.
What is funny is that you have reached the same conclusion based on the same information. You just won't admit it. The conclusion is that Rossi is most likely not legitimate. And, yes, a conclusion can be inexact.
So, if I am wrong, you are also wrong. Not that it matters much, because being wrong would be wonderful.
It is funny that you still consider your mystical feeling that led you to the same conclusion that I share to be a superior to identifying problems in Rossi's claims and applying reasoning to them.KitemanSA wrote:I find it distressing that I have wasted this much time pointing out the obvious flaws in your "logic".
Finding loopholes in individual arguments is not the same as finding flaws in the overall argument.
You are like a lone resistance fighter, picking off a few individual soldiers as the mass of the invading army sweeps across your defenseless country. Your tiny insignificant self proclaimed victories do not a war win.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
tomclarke,
You apparently think the opinion of the people that have never heard of the subject should count. Odd.
Most people are certainly not "habitants" of this site either. Most people still haven't even heard of LENR. Those that are interested in following progress in this field do frequent the sites that specialize in it. The majority of these people do believe LENR is real."most people" are not habitants of LENR fan-sites. If you use content of the latter as your idea of what is normal it is not surprising you have a very skewed view of the world.
You apparently think the opinion of the people that have never heard of the subject should count. Odd.
First, your argument that these "geniuses" were bad people is anecdotal at best. You added the remarks in a false hope of improving your argument, it did not. The remarks were pointless.Axil wrote:Who is perfect? Einstein was an adulterer. So What?
Rossi is an American patriot. He wants his invention to advance the American agenda. Being American patriots yourselves, you should cut this guy some slack.
Rossi is not American, is not a patriot, and only came to this country because he's not very welcomed in his own. I bet he doesn't visit Lacchiarella too often...mostly because he bankrupt the city with his environmental spill. We don't want his kind here.
Parallel, everyone reading this thread has heard of the subject, but they are not guaranteed to be Rossi fans.parallel wrote:tomclarke,Most people are certainly not "habitants" of this site either. Most people still haven't even heard of LENR. Those that are interested in following progress in this field do frequent the sites that specialize in it. The majority of these people do believe LENR is real."most people" are not habitants of LENR fan-sites. If you use content of the latter as your idea of what is normal it is not surprising you have a very skewed view of the world.
You apparently think the opinion of the people that have never heard of the subject should count. Odd.
I view LENR as a separate issue from Rossi. Rossi is a liar. LENR is what it will turn out to be.parallel wrote:tomclarke,In fact, Kiteman has got it right. You are confused, thinking yourself and four other pathological skeptics on this site make up some kind of majority.From my perspective, several people have reached the same judgement based on substantial evidence.
Judging from the various sites that cover LENR, most people think it is real. Time will tell but it looks like you protest too much. Getting worried are you?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)