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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

GIThruster wrote:" Does anybody think that there will be more people taking drugs if it was made legal?"

Yes. This is obviously the case. Many if not most people avoid certain behaviors solely because they are illegal.

You have to really be grasping at straws to even doubt the above, let alone pretend the answer is otherwise. I meet people all the time who have never used drugs and almost none of these people would exist if the drugs were legal. What a dopey question!
Except the experience in Holland is that use declines esp. among the youth. And what is more with the "legalization" of pot consumption, the age of the heroin use cohort has gone up there. Because with the stuff illegal pot is a vector for connecting pot users with heroin dealers. Alaska saw no upsurge in pot use when it decriminalized pot for users, nor did California when it stopped (mostly) arresting users. And California may be the first state to fully legalize. It is on the ballot this November and the result at this time is too close to call. We will know in November.

As the old die off it is just a matter of time. My guess is that if it doesn't pass this Nov it will be almost certain to pass in 2012.

And what got all the drug hysteria off to a roaring start in 1910 - 14? The fear of "cocainized black men" raping white women. And Chinese corrupting white women with smoked opium. All nipped in the bud (so to speak) by the Harrison Narcotics Act. Except that use has varied little over the decades except for an upsurge when cocaine became a fad. And the fad lasted about 10 years.

And guess what. Although drug use varies little across the various segments of the population (black use is very slightly lower than white use) blacks bear the brunt of enforcement esp. when it comes to jail time.

And of course the death of 10,000 to 15,000 Mexicans a year in Drug Wars is not our concern. And Bolivia? Colombia? Peru? Too far away to matter.

And no one yet has refuted my point:

Prohibited = distributed by criminals.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Survey Finds That 48% of Likely Voters Are Against Prop. 19

Prop 19 is about legalizing pot.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 4666.story


Here is a stat I thought instructive:
Likely voters younger than 30 heavily support it. They are joined by likely voters between 50 and 64 who came of age during the Vietnam War. Likely voters who are 65 and older oppose it 57% to 33%.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

I think, if you want a real understanding of this issue, you need to make very simple observations about human nature. It's not anecdotal to recognize there are enormous numbers of people who use alcohol, but not drugs, because drugs are illegal.

Making any human activity illegal has vast consequences, as does legalizing what is illegal. If you legalize drugs, you are going to have more drug use and all the irresponsibility that goes with this.

It's all well and good to legalize dope until someone stoned kills your kin with a car.

This legalizing issue is the road to madness. . .but maybe madness is where we have to head.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

It's all well and good to legalize dope until someone stoned kills your kin with a car.
Far more are killed by alcohol. Why no call for alcohol prohibition? Oh. Yeah. It multiplied the problems of alcohol use rather than reduced them. Clue? It amazes me that so few who are committed to prohibition are willing to acknowledge the parallels. Their inevitable response is that drugs are different from drugs (Ooooops. I meant alcohol) when it comes to policing.

There is evidence (quite a lot really and I'll find more if you want - http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... based.html) that experienced pot users are slightly safer than non-users when it comes to driving. Why? Pot users overestimate how much they are impaired and over compensate. Alcohol users tend to not recognize how bad off they are and under compensate. Now if we could move the heavy alcohol users to pot..... But you are right. Prohibition does deter some. And so we pay the price.

And now we come to the heavy stuff. Since so many have opined on why users use based on government propaganda. I think it is time to look at the science:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... sease.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2004/09/heroin.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ystem.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html

How some police look at the effort:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... nkies.html

And overview of brain chemistry re: illegal drugs:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... holes.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html

and a bit on the politics:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... s-war.html

a bit on history:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm

and this bit which nicely compliments the above (and is a shorter read):

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... s-war.html

For the rich a drug arrest is an inconvenience for the poor it is a disaster. Class war indeed. So why don't the police enforce equally (whites use at a slightly higher rate than blacks)? Well if they used the same policing techniques in white neighborhoods that they do in black ones the drug war would be over in months.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html

What prohibition is doing to black families:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... phics.html

American politics:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2009/03/speech.html

How arresting our way out of the problem really works:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... erapy.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... eople.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ution.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... -crow.html

Wall Street Journal video:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... olicy.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... notes.html

Let me quote from the above:
At a House Foreign Affairs Committee meeting this week our Deputy Secretary of State for the Americas, Mr. Valenzuela was asked by the chairman about the murders of 16 school kids at a birthday party in Mexico. His response was ‘the murders were a sign of success’ of the policy of Mexican President Calderone. I did not believe my ears. After the hearing I asked 2 others if I had heard correctly. Yes. I reviewed the tape at home. Yup. Like body counts in Vietnam and Iraq, dead students are a sign of success. Who knew?
The NASA take:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... icial.html

Drug testing in high tech industry:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -tech.html

===============

Now if (as the NIDA says) addiction is a genetic disease please explain how policing is going to fix the problem.

For further research: study the CB1 and CB2 systems in the body.

==============

My take on the drug war from studying the science: The drug war is a war on the genetically disposed whose need for relief has been triggered by trauma. When I pointed this out to a former Sheriff and he finally got it the Sheriff (a very moral man) was deeply ashamed. I explained that since he was unaware of the evidence anything he did in his past life was not his fault.

Here is how some police view the whole enterprise.:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ition.html

video:

Law officers discuss prohibition

Man's wheelchair taken from him for smoking pot:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... wheel.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... n-you.html

====

Senior citizens say:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -hope.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... alize.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

Desperate heroin users in a few African cities have begun engaging in a practice that is so dangerous it is almost unthinkable: they deliberately inject themselves with another addict’s blood, researchers say, in an effort to share the high or stave off the pangs of withdrawal.

The practice, called flashblood or sometimes flushblood, is not ommon, but has been reported in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, on the island of Zanzibar and in Mombasa, Kenya.

It puts users at the highest possible risk of contracting AIDS and hepatitis. While most AIDS transmission in Africa is by heterosexual sex, the use of heroin is growing in some cities, and experts are warning that flashblood — along with syringe-sharing and other dangerous habits — could fuel a new wave of AIDS infections.

“Injecting yourself with fresh blood is a crazy practice — it’s the most effective way of infecting yourself with H.I.V.,” said Dr. Nora D. Volkow, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, which supports the researchers who discovered the practice. “Even though the number who do it is a relatively small group, they are vectors for H.I.V. because they support themselves by sex work.”

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2010/ ... irism.html

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

To get back to the central theme of this forum topic...


Bill O'reilly gets hit with a clue bat.



Bill O’Reilly: Media Networks Are Not Honest & Their Agenda Is to Protect Obama (Video)


http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/20 ... /#comments

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

and another one...



US Media Mogul Zuckerman Admits Writing Obama’s Speech



http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/20 ... /#comments

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Desperate heroin users in a few African cities have begun engaging in a practice that is so dangerous it is almost unthinkable: they deliberately inject themselves with another addict’s blood, researchers say, in an effort to share the high or stave off the pangs of withdrawal.
Another harm caused by prohibition.

But what are the odds that this is just another lurid dope fiend story made up to scare the rubes?

On an active ingredient weight basis the price of heroin has come down by a factor of 600 in the last 40 years. If we were not hearing such stories 40 years ago why would we be hearing them now?

Penn and Teller:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ZOwtMvvuM

The part about the decline in the price of heroin starts at about 7:40 in.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

Some of the media people who have been CAUGHT conspiring to fabricate false meme's and other propaganda. They need to face civil penalties for illegal undisclosed campaign contributions.


Image

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

DavidWillard wrote:
Oh great, who will speak for them when they are rounded up. Some of the comments were menacing..

There were some jackbooted folks that made lists too. Right down to the street level roundup routes in England and other countries to be conquered.

Just post that they are exposed for what stupidity they espouse. Enough said. That way it eliminates false positives.

The opposite rambling and threatening might be considered a hate crime in a strict view of the first Amendment. (note the little f as it's shrinking in importance)
The fist Amendment does not recognize hate crimes. What you are looking for is Assault.

Of course picking on some random Righty and accusing them of racism to deflect attention from Mr. Obama's racist minister is not very nice. It is bound to draw ire from those so maligned. In fact it would seem that the tactic has been used against the Tea Party folks. That would be about 15 to 20% of voting age Americans. I don't see how that helps race relations.

In fact my mate expected this sort of thing to happen if Mr. Obama got elected. And lest you think she is some kind of racist - she dated black guys several of whom turned into good friends of mine.

And you know what is said about blacks who agree with the Tea Party? They are not black enough.

Now compare Kenneth Gladney to the head of the NAACP. And tell me who is black and who could pass for white?

And look what else I found I am Kenneth Gladney or Come One, Come All! Rub a Picaninny's Head (aka a Black Conservative) for a Dollar!

Sweet. You can't be authentically black and support a conservative agenda.

That is really going to improve things.

So yeah. I guess false charges of racism are going to upset people.

My guess? America is done with the race industry.
"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs."-- Booker T Washington
So it is not new. What is new is that it is coming to an end.

Well I have come a long way since I marched on Springfield, Illinois in 1962 for an end to discrimination by government. I still feel the same. I'm against discrimination on account of race. Whether it be against whites, blacks, asians, or any other group.
Racial Preferences in College admissions

Putting preferences in terms of test scores, at private schools, blacks get an advantage, compared to whites, worth 310 SAT points (out of 1600), Hispanics an advantage of 130, and Asians a disadvantage of 140. At public schools, the authors present the difference in ACT points: blacks 3.8 (out of 36), Hispanics 0.3, Asians –3.4.

If we look at students who actually matriculate, blacks are far more likely than whites to come from the bottom 80 percent of their high-school classes (27 percent versus 12 percent), have high-school GPAs of B+ or below (32 versus 18 percent), and have SAT scores below 1000 (21 versus 2 percent).

The logical conclusion from this mountain of evidence is obvious: Top-of-the-line schools use severe racial preferences. This shouldn’t be all that shocking; although colleges usually keep quiet about the degree to which they prefer blacks and Hispanics over Asians and whites, anecdotes and numbers have been trickling out for years.
What ever happened to the color blind society I was promised?

But the question is: has it helped? No. Because people placed in educational situations they can't handle fail at much higher rates than those who match their ability to their college.

So how do colleges deal with that little problem so they don't look quite so bad? Well they bring in Caribbean blacks who can handle the load to stand in for American blacks. That is getting a little crazy if AA is supposed to make up for American slavery and Jim Crow.

BTW what do you have against people finding out who tows the party line? (and yeah I know that "toe the line" is more traditional - but in this case I think "tow the line" is more apt) It is not my fault this annoys some people. Greatly.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I don't think we have the America where you can trust your neighbor not to fight dirty, and play fair and safeguard your freedoms and rights.
Which is why I am neither left nor right. Both sides have their favorite social engineering projects. And I'm against social engineering.

But you have to admit that picking some high profile person at random and calling them racists has got to be pretty low. And it is bound to get folks riled up. I'd say the threats are the result of false accusations. You want to do something about that? Tell the liars to stop.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

Top Leftie Blogger: Obama Campaign Asked Me to Do ‘Dirty Work’ in 2008, and I Did

Leading gay blogger John Aravosis, writing today at his Americablog about White House spokesman Robert Gibbs attacking inside the beltway progressive critics of Barack Obama, like Aravosis, let slip that he performed surreptitious “dirty work” for Obama at the behest of his 2008 presidential campaign:

http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/20 ... and-i-did/

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