We are Doomed! DOOOOOMMED I say!

[Skipjack]

Keep up. It has been done in Portugal since about 2000. You don't hear much about it.

A gross missrepresentation of the actual situation in Portugal:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nalization

Under the Portuguese plan, penalties for people caught dealing and trafficking drugs are unchanged; dealers are still jailed and subjected to fines depending on the crime.
But people caught using or possessing small amounts—defined as the amount needed for 10 days of personal use—are brought before what's known as a "Dissuasion Commission," an administrative body created by the 2001 law.
Each three-person commission includes at least one lawyer or judge and one health care or social services worker. The panel has the option of recommending treatment, a small fine, or no sanction.

This is very different from a complete liberalisation of the drug market that Msimon is suggesting.

[Diogenes]

I thought the Netherlands already fit this description?

Only cannabis and that is still regulated. It did not do them much good either. Every druggy and wannbe druggy goes to Amsterdam to get their stuff. Amsterdam has turned into one huge assembly of low lives.

You mean it is not a crimeless utopian heaven on earth? I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED I AM!!

[MSimon]

Isn't there registered drug addicts in Switzerland for heroin and such to help them kick it and give it to them if they want it? That way they don't collect in the parks and mug and rob people on the streets. I remember about that back in the 90's. If the druggies want to off themselves slowly or quickly, it's evolution in action.

Opiates of known strength and purity are quite safe. If users have the antidote available they are almost completely safe. In fact opiates are less harmful to the body than alcohol or tobacco.

The Consumers Union Report - Licit and Illicit Drugs

Most of what you think you know about illegal drugs is government/newspaper propaganda. i.e. a wallet extraction scheme. And yet folks who don't trust the government to do anything right and count on newspapers to distort information blindly fall for government/newspaper propaganda. I guess it is not propaganda if you want to believe.

[MSimon]

I thought the Netherlands already fit this description?

Only cannabis and that is still regulated. It did not do them much good either. Every druggy and wannbe druggy goes to Amsterdam to get their stuff. Amsterdam has turned into one huge assembly of low lives.

You mean it is not a crimeless utopian heaven on earth? I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED I AM!! :)

Why should it be? Distribution is the cause of most drug crime and distribution is still illegal.

[MSimon]

Keep up. It has been done in Portugal since about 2000. You don't hear much about it.

A gross missrepresentation of the actual situation in Portugal:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nalization

Under the Portuguese plan, penalties for people caught dealing and trafficking drugs are unchanged; dealers are still jailed and subjected to fines depending on the crime.
But people caught using or possessing small amounts—defined as the amount needed for 10 days of personal use—are brought before what's known as a "Dissuasion Commission," an administrative body created by the 2001 law.
Each three-person commission includes at least one lawyer or judge and one health care or social services worker. The panel has the option of recommending treatment, a small fine, or no sanction.

This is very different from a complete liberalisation of the drug market that Msimon is suggesting.

In other words the black market is still in operation but users are lightly sanctioned. Just like alcohol prohibition in America 1920 - 33. I note for the record that alcohol prohibition was ended in part due to gang wars between distributors.

It is amazing how dumb Americans have gotten in just 70 some years.

[Skipjack]

Opiates of known strength and purity are quite safe. If users have the antidote available they are almost completely safe. In fact opiates are less harmful to the body than alcohol or tobacco.

In Portugal, where the useage of Heroin has been decriminalized there are still 290 deaths from heroin overdose allone every year.
It used to be 400 though. So it is not quite as safe as you make it.
I again want to contradict the notion that opiates are less harmful to the body than tabacco or alcohol. It depends on the dosage of course. Very few people get completely wasted every day. You however are comparing the effects of being severely drunk to a shot of heroin, or a joint. They all have about the same amount of ill effects on your brain. For tabacco, well you once again have to take somebody who smokes 3 packs a day to maybe be able to compare the ill effects.
The dosage is what makes the poison.

[MSimon]

You however are coparing the effects of being severely drunk to a shot of heroin, or a joint.

Most heroin users like most alcohol users use only occasionally.

What I'm comparing is lurid cases to lurid cases.

Did you even read the Consumer's Union report on opiates? Or just copy blindly newspaper/government propaganda.

Heroin deaths would be lower still if supplies were legalized. As I understand it Switzerland has good results with such a regime. So good in fact that Swiss VOTERS favored it twice. With the second vote garnering higher percentages than the first.

[Skipjack]

In other words the black market is still in operation but users are lightly sanctioned.

I think that many users get treatment in methadone clinics to wean them off the opiates. Since they get their daily "shot" for free there, this helps destroying the black market quite a bit. I am sure there still are plenty of drug dealers there though. I dont think that they would go away, even if it was completely legalized. There would still be some that would then go and sell it to children, or use other loopholes for their illegal endeavours. It would just be much harder to find them amongst all the "legal dealers"...
I want to bring up one more thing: In Austria, prostitution is legal, unlike the US. If legalization really brought a reduction in drug use and drug related crime, it should do the same in regards to prostitution in Austria compared to the US, right?
Well it does not! We still have human trafficking by pimps, girls from the former eastern block forced into prostitution, organized crime managing prostution rings and prostitution related illnesses spread across the country.
Seeing all the strip clubs, night clubs, contact bars, whatever you want to call it in my hometown, whenever I take a walk, make me puke. I have never seen that many in any US town (I have not been to Las Vegas though). So I seriously doubt that the legalization brought a reduction of prostitution here, nor did it bring an improved conditions for the women involved. All it did was that it allows glorified pimps to officially shake hands with governors and other politician scum at the opera ball and other so called "high society" events.
Quite honestly, I can live without that.

[MSimon]

I think that many users get treatment in methadone clinics to wean them off the opiates

Methadone IS an opiate. The users are not weaned. They are substituted. i.e. it is a trick on the gullible population. Of which there appears to be a rather large number.

It would be really nice if I could have one of these discussions with people actually conversant with the medical literature. Of course if you knew the literature there would hardly be a discussion. Governments depend on ignorance and misinformation to keep prohibition going. It works. Rather well.

[Skipjack]

And if you were actually trying to understand what I was trying to say instead of looking for potential mistakes, we would have a lot less arguments.
The users get the methadone in a controlled environment. They get lower and lower dosages over time, weaning them off the drug.

[MSimon]

And if you were actually trying to understand what I was trying to say instead of looking for potential mistakes, we would have a lot less arguments.
The users get the methadone in a controlled environment. They get lower and lower dosages over time, weaning them off the drug.

And those that don't like the methadone high go right back to using. BTW heroin is cheaper. But that is not something governments worry about.

[Skipjack]

And those that don't like the methadone high go right back to using.

Well what can I say, it works in Portugal, obviously and according to the study by the libertarian cato organisation.

BTW heroin is cheaper. But that is not something governments worry about.

I think you should read up on Methadone a bit. I suggest you also read up on the cross tolerance part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methadone

[WizWom]

I actually think there is a lot of sense in the Zurich model for drug treatment and decriminalization.

The first step must be to take distribution out of the hands of criminals; after that, dealing with those who cannot handle them is less troublesome, because they aren't double-stigmatized.

[MSimon]

I suggest you also read up on the cross tolerance part.

What else would you expect from drugs that fill the same receptor? Some users like the high and the rush that comes from deprivation (suddenly filling a bunch of empty receptors). We have an excellent system for enhancing that.

We do know that 5% of heroin users give up use every year. With or without rehab. So does methadone increase that rate or just cannibalize it? We have no reliable statistics that I'm aware of. Lots of anecdotes. We do have some stats. But they are poorly compiled. Failures are excluded as much as possible to sell the programs.