Talk-Polywell.org

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http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 06845.aspx

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MSimon wrote:*

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 06845.aspx

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Forget Moon bases that will never be built lofted by heavy lifters (Ares V) that will be canceled after five units are constructed. If a POTUS, the European Commission or the Chinese Communist Party wants a true "reach" national prestige program, the space elevator (or a derivative, Skyhooks, Aerovators, Loffstrom Loops, etc.) is the way to go.

Unless Bussard QED or Left Field reactionless propulsion become available in the near term, that is.

Duane

I don't see the space elevator happening any time soon - it's another forever-50-years-in-the-future(TM) project. The materials and engineering scale is so massive, even if they can be overcome - cost will forever remain an issue.

What I want to see is a giant catenary structure for a launch-pad. Construct a building that gets your rockets up to 5 or 6 miles above sea level before they even launch and cut your fuel costs up to 50%.

This is feasible from an engineering and materials point right now. Cost is still an issue, but it's surmountable.

Or Mt. Everest could be converted to a space port. That'd be a fun project.

Scupperer wrote:I don't see the space elevator happening any time soon - it's another forever-50-years-in-the-future(TM) project. The materials and engineering scale is so massive, even if they can be overcome - cost will forever remain an issue.

The Aerovator is easily within current materials limits.

As to cost, interest and COLA adjusted expenditure on Apollo should provide a serviceable standard.

Scupperer wrote:What I want to see is a giant catenary structure for a launch-pad. Construct a building that gets your rockets up to 5 or 6 miles above sea level before they even launch and cut your fuel costs up to 50%.

That's easy. Its called Denver.

Actually, rumor is that the Pentagon's black spaceplane launches from Colorado for just this reason.

Duane

Scupperer wrote:Or Mt. Everest could be converted to a space port. That'd be a fun project.

Meybe even launch a few a few project orions from there Im sure the greens would love it. Which brings me to my next point.

We (as in the Human Race) need Polywell. We are having a hard time even affording it.

Hence why my optimism with Megascale Engineering is perhaps, not as bright.

Denver is called the "mile high city" for a reason. And Everest is a little out of the way in terms of infrastructure accessibilty.

Mt. Mckinley is in our control, but also somewhat remote. Worse it regularly gets to -100 at the summit, which would add to the engineering problems.

But a possibly better candidate would be Mt. Chimborazo in Ecuador. Relatively low above sea level, it lies very near the equator. Since the Earth is not a sphere, but oblate, that means that, in fact, Chimborazo is two kilometers farther from the center of the Earth at it's top.

Now, the atmosphere is still as thick there, so that still has to be countered. But I wonder if the distance from the center of mass of the planet is, in fact, what's being countered with high elevation launches? If so, then Chimborazo may be the best bet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimborazo_(volcano)

It's 90 miles from Quito, a city of over 1,000,000 people, and there's pretty good infrastructure leading to it... it's a popular mountaineering destination. Since it's near the equator, it's temperatures are much more palatable than most high peaks.

In any case... given that this is so near the equator, some have posited it as the base for the space elevator... even Clarke mentions that it's the likely site (admitting that his idea in "The Fountains of Paradise" to have it in Sri Lanka was for purposes of plot).

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote:... Everest is a little out of the way in terms of infrastructure accessibilty.


Mike

If everest were in U.A.E. they would do it.

I have been of the opinion for some time that a Maglev sled (Inductotrac with Halbach arrays) would make a nice incremental reduction in launch costs (about 30%).

Keegan wrote:

Scupperer wrote:Or Mt. Everest could be converted to a space port. That'd be a fun project.

Maybe even launch a few a few project orions from there Im sure the greens would love it. Which brings me to my next point.

Nah. Launch an Orion from Jackass Flats. Sentimentality can be properly ironic at times.

Keegan wrote:We (as in the Human Race) need Polywell. We are having a hard time even affording it.

We need something that breaks past the status quo. Polywell is a promising approach, but not the only plausible option.

Keegan wrote:Hence why my optimism with Megascale Engineering is perhaps, not as bright.

Kewl toy and prestige project tho.

Duane

MSimon wrote:I have been of the opinion for some time that a Maglev sled (Inductotrac with Halbach arrays) would make a nice incremental reduction in launch costs (about 30%).

I saw a reference to it earlier. Have you read the "Millenium Project" ?




David

ravingdave wrote:

MSimon wrote:I have been of the opinion for some time that a Maglev sled (Inductotrac with Halbach arrays) would make a nice incremental reduction in launch costs (about 30%).

I saw a reference to it earlier. Have you read the "Millenium Project" ?

David

If you mean the UN project - I have just had a look.

Stupidity squared. Want to end poverty? The answer is honest government and as little of it as possible. Of course the UN has no interest in that.

Poverty is not (at this time) a technical or economic problem. It is a political problem.

Rotating Tethers also have good potential, even with current materials
http://www.tethers.com
Check out their HASTOL system.
The main man Robert Forward came across much like Dr Bussard at a presentation I attended.

I did some BOE's a couple of years back using a used B52 (or a new 747) to swing a tether like an old-fashioned sling to throw a payload.
Put it into a turn then start reeling out the payload on the tether and cut it loose when it is at the speed and direction you want.
The results were amazing.
Even using a Cessna for a proof of concept could produce some impressive payload weight*velocity numbers.

MSimon wrote:

ravingdave wrote:

MSimon wrote:I have been of the opinion for some time that a Maglev sled (Inductotrac with Halbach arrays) would make a nice incremental reduction in launch costs (about 30%).

I saw a reference to it earlier. Have you read the "Millenium Project" ?

David

If you mean the UN project - I have just had a look.

Stupidity squared. Want to end poverty? The answer is honest government and as little of it as possible. Of course the UN has no interest in that.

Poverty is not (at this time) a technical or economic problem. It is a political problem.

Knowing my political persuasian, are you kidding ? My theory of government is that the more people represented, the stupider it becomes.

I'm talking about this.

http://www.amazon.com/Millennial-Projec ... 0316771635

Oooppss. It's "Milenial", not "Millinium"


Sorry. Hadn't read the book in years. In any case, one of the chapters deals with electromagnetic accelerators for launch vehicles.



David

Knowing my political persuasian, are you kidding ? My theory of government is that the more people represented, the stupider it becomes.

Also the fewer represented the more oppressive. As I said - honest small government. Minimizing interference in the economy and the problems of kleptocracy.

There is no perfect system. However, there is better and worse.

tombo wrote:I did some BOE's a couple of years back using a used B52 (or a new 747) to swing a tether like an old-fashioned sling to throw a payload.
Put it into a turn then start reeling out the payload on the tether and cut it loose when it is at the speed and direction you want.
The results were amazing.

I'd love to see your results, especially if they account for tether air drag.