Rat Park And The Addictiveness Of Drugs

[MSimon]

Rats in Rat Park and control animals in standard laboratory cages had access to two water bottles, one filled with plain water and the other with morphine-laced water. The denizens of Rat Park overwhelmingly preferred plain water to morphine ( the test produced statistical confidence levels of over 99.9 percent ). Even when Alexander tried to seduce his rats by sweetening the morphine, the ones in Rat Park drank far less than the ones in cages. Only when he added naloxone, which eliminates morphine’s narcotic effects, did the rats in Rat Park start drinking from the water-sugar-morphine bottle. They wanted the sweet water, but not if it made them high.

http://www.marijuanaparty.ca/article.ph ... rticle=440

[Schneibster]

I know people who either through injury (motorcycle head-on with a Beetle, spiral fractured leg) or cancer have had strong opiates for long periods. They report that they had no trouble with addiction. This was intravenous Morphine, I forget the trade name. I would also say that someone at the end of terminal cancer should be given all the morphine they'll take; some doctors even recommend heroin, and I don't know that I see a problem with that for someone who is dying in extreme pain.

I would like to see these drugs far more carefully researched, and pain itself far better understood. There has been a recent move in medicine toward this, and toward more humane practices during end-of-life. I think there is a Puritanical streak in some doctors that I check for, questioning them quite carefully before accepting them as a treatment provider. I disapprove of it; it's not their body, it's mine. If they won't follow my wishes they're not touching it. There's lotsa fish in the sea.

[Jccarlton]

I think that it's no accident that the rise of drug use and the great society happened at the same time. Or that Socialist societies have high drug and alcohol usage. My buddy from Communist Poland told me of the lengths that people would go to get some sort of palliative. The same problem happens in the dependent people of the ghettos here. That, more than anything else is what got Trayvon Martin killed. And in fact, if you look at the rat city experiments they look sort of look like inner city ghettos. The fact is that Socialism creates sick societies. There are just so many good examples.
Sarah Hoyt's blog post today may have some explanation why:
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2013/10/23/f ... ent-126224
I think that some of us just can't live with the rigidities of the Socialist uberstate. We don't want to spend great amount of time on trivial things while just trying to live our lives. We don't want to live the regulated societies unending repetitive patterns and constant requirements. We want to fly when the society wants to have trudge along the ground like rats in a pack, wher nobody stands out and becomes and individual. So we become sick and look for ways out. That is the Trayvon tragedy. George may have pulled the trigger, but it was the Socialist state that killed him.

[Diogenes]

I think that some of us just can't live with the rigidities of the Socialist uberstate. We don't want to spend great amount of time on trivial things while just trying to live our lives. We don't want to live the regulated societies unending repetitive patterns and constant requirements. We want to fly when the society wants to have trudge along the ground like rats in a pack, wher nobody stands out and becomes and individual. So we become sick and look for ways out. That is the Trayvon tragedy. George may have pulled the trigger, but it was the Socialist state that killed him.

I think the socialist state killed Trayvon, but you aren't putting your finger on the proximate cause.


The primary manner in which the socialist state killed Trayvon, and indeed annually kills thousands like him is by excising the father from the family unit by making him unnecessary.

Paying poor people inculcates them with destructive habits and ideas, not the least of which is leaving them with the belief that having sex is inconsequential. Children raised without fathers never learn how to function properly in society, and as a result become prey to all sorts of corrupting influences.

Trayvon is such a victim.

[Stubby]

And you always trot out this out about the ills of society

how about you offer some solutions to these perceived problems. tell us about the US remade into Diogenes' view.

[Jccarlton]

And you always trot out this out about the ills of society

how about you offer some solutions to these perceived problems. tell us about the US remade into Diogenes' view.

Now this is going to be something that you may not understand, but the solution is easy. Engineers, if they are any good adhere to the KISS principle, keep it simple and stupid. The best government is small government and it's better if people take care of their own affairs. So we kill most of the regulation and stop paying people to not be productive and watch what happens.

[Diogenes]

And you always trot out this out about the ills of society

how about you offer some solutions to these perceived problems. tell us about the US remade into Diogenes' view.

I perceive you as being so utterly ignorant of how the United States got into this mess, that I do not think I can articulate any meaningful explanation to you of how (and why it would work) we might have gotten OUT of this mess. (I no longer think there *IS* a viable solution. Darwinism will now take charge of both this nation, and the individuals whom have been so ill served by it. )


But my argument would have began with this. When you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, the first thing you do is stop digging.

[Diogenes]

And you always trot out this out about the ills of society

how about you offer some solutions to these perceived problems. tell us about the US remade into Diogenes' view.

Now this is going to be something that you may not understand, but the solution is easy. Engineers, if they are any good adhere to the KISS principle, keep it simple and stupid. The best government is small government and it's better if people take care of their own affairs. So we kill most of the regulation and stop paying people to not be productive and watch what happens.

Indeed. We need negative feedback for conditions we don't want, and positive feedback for conditions we do want.


Treat the problem like an engineering problem and the solutions seem rather obvious.

[hanelyp]

Feedback systems are something good engineers have a grasp on. But apparently the necessary feedbacks for a functional society are considered cruel and inhumane.

[Stubby]

keep speaking in general terms...

what kind of negative feedback?
what regulations should be removed?
how can 'fathers' become relevant again?

Diogenes:
I may have asked the question but the answer is for everyone. Please demonstrate your wisdom.

[Diogenes]

Feedback systems are something good engineers have a grasp on. But apparently the necessary feedbacks for a functional society are considered cruel and inhumane.

Pain is an unpleasant way to teach we humans not to stick our fingers in the fire, but nevertheless it is how Nature teaches us these things. I suspect it's because human stubborn preference towards behaving stupidly REQUIRES a great deal of pain to defer from a chosen course of action.

Do you know what happens when you disconnect the pain transmitting nerve endings from the decision making process ala leprosy?

Injuries occur and don't heal. Eventually the disease progresses until flesh is putrefying and death occurs. I think this nation is very close to that stage now.

[Stubby]

Rats in Rat Park and control animals in standard laboratory cages had access to two water bottles, one filled with plain water and the other with morphine-laced water. The denizens of Rat Park overwhelmingly preferred plain water to morphine ( the test produced statistical confidence levels of over 99.9 percent ). Even when Alexander tried to seduce his rats by sweetening the morphine, the ones in Rat Park drank far less than the ones in cages. Only when he added naloxone, which eliminates morphine’s narcotic effects, did the rats in Rat Park start drinking from the water-sugar-morphine bottle. They wanted the sweet water, but not if it made them high.

http://www.marijuanaparty.ca/article.ph ... rticle=440

[Stubby]

Feedback systems are something good engineers have a grasp on. But apparently the necessary feedbacks for a functional society are considered cruel and inhumane.

Pain is an unpleasant way to teach we humans not to stick our fingers in the fire, but nevertheless it is how Nature teaches us these things. I suspect it's because human stubborn preference towards behaving stupidly REQUIRES a great deal of pain to defer from a chosen course of action.

Do you know what happens when you disconnect the pain transmitting nerve endings from the decision making process ala leprosy?

Injuries occur and don't heal. Eventually the disease progresses until flesh is putrefying and death occurs. I think this nation is very close to that stage now.

More generalities....
Show us the wisdom?!

[Diogenes]

keep speaking in general terms...

Solve the general equation and all the specifics iterations are solved as well.

what kind of negative feedback?

The normal sort imposed by nature. i.e. "Fire Hot! Don't touch."

what regulations should be removed?

Regulations? WTH are you talking about?

how can 'fathers' become relevant again?

In order to understand this, you must first understand how they came to be irrelevant.

Diogenes:
I may have asked the question but the answer is for everyone. Please demonstrate your wisdom.

Yes, toss off a treatise on positive and negative feedbacks as applied to human nature and specifically involving the care and maintenance of familial structures in a predominately Christian based society with Capitalist financial underpinnings in fifteen minutes or so. Make it short and simple and don't use too many big words or complicated concepts. I'll get right on that.


The act of transferring information is in itself a feedback based system. In order to know what needs to be sent, one must know what the receiving party doesn't already have, and in this case, what the receiver needs to have is an understanding of the History of how things got the way they are, and where they went wrong.


I can put my finger on any number of points in history where things started going off the rails, what is relevant is greatly dependent upon what aspect one wants to concentrate on. The problem with this stuff is that it's all interconnected, and it must be understood in terms of all the cross connections between cause and effect.

As anyone who has ever troubleshot a system with feedback, the first thing you must do is to break the feedback loop and examine the state of the system under open loop conditions. In this context it means examining sections of history and society at a time.



But to get to the task at hand, the first thing to do is to realize that the norm of human instinct is patriarchy. When every child is born, the mother is the nurturer and the father is the force of will. This is why Monarchy has always been so popular throughout human history; because it is merely an extension of the familial norm into which everyone is born.

Humans prefer the STRONG LEADER form of government because they instinctively recognize it as normal. Now they also prefer a strong leader who is smart, but first and foremost, he must be STRONG. (Like a father.)



Gotta go. Will write more later.

[Schneibster]

And you always trot out this out about the ills of society

how about you offer some solutions to these perceived problems. tell us about the US remade into Diogenes' view.

Now this is going to be something that you may not understand, but the solution is easy. Engineers, if they are any good adhere to the KISS principle, keep it simple and stupid. The best government is small government and it's better if people take care of their own affairs. So we kill most of the regulation and stop paying people to not be productive and watch what happens.

You can't have a small government any more when you have 300 million people in your country.