Tancredo: Prohibition funds terrorists

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:00 pm

...by keeping marijuana illegal for the last 75 years, we have created a black market that helps fuel some of the most dangerous terrorist organizations in the world. These narcoterrorists, who have operatives spread throughout the U.S., are wreaking havoc on our southern borders and are a menace to American businesses with operations in Mexico and South America.

From: http://www.regulatemarijuana.org/tancredo

he also says:

I am endorsing Amendment 64 not despite my conservative beliefs, but because of them.

Throughout my career in public policy and in public office, I have fought to reform or eliminate wasteful and ineffective government programs. There is no government program or policy I can think of that has failed in such a unique way as marijuana prohibition.

Our nation is spending tens of billions of dollars annually in an attempt to prohibit adults from using a substance objectively less harmful than alcohol.

Yet marijuana is still widely available in our society. We are not preventing its use; we are merely ensuring that all of the profits from the sale of marijuana (outside the medical marijuana system) flow to the criminal underground.

Regardless of what ultimately happens on the federal level, we have an opportunity to stop pouring money into a failed system in Colorado.

Polls are all over the place on the Colorado legalization effort. Some show it up 11 points. Others show it at around 50%. It will be interesting to see what happens in November.

It is causing trouble for Obama:

They [the polls - Simon] also pose a challenge for the re-election campaign of President Barack Obama, who across the country is courting the young voters who support marijuana legalization while remaining opposed to the policy change.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuan ... s-new-poll

palladin9479 · Post by **palladin9479** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:14 am

It's a simple expression of supply vs demand. Attempting to control supply will not limit demand only raise the price of the supply. Tighter supply controls result in higher prices not the elimination of the supply nor the reduction of the demand.

Prohibition of Cannibis has resulted in no regulated free market rising and instead what you get is the pure expression of an unregulated free market. Different financial groups fighting each other in whatever method they have at their disposal for control of that market, ie the gangs.

The US government will get more and more authoritarian in it's attempts to control this unregulated market with the ultimate goal of shutting down supply entirely. As you can't ever shut down supply without first reducing demand, their attempts are mostly futile.

I don't personally use MJ for recreational purposes, similarly I don't abuse nicotine. My only recreational drugs are caffeine and alcohol, the latter I only use in social settings typically involving young members of feminine persuasion. Having said that, I am for it's legalization and regulation similar to other legal recreational drugs. This isn't a philosophical argument nor about "family vs liberal values" but from a purely practical point of view. It's simply too expensive, in upfront law enforcement costs as well as secondary and tertiary costs. The costs of the drug wars in Mexico, the costs to our prison system, the costs to our own personal liberty and the costs to our society as a whole.

Instead of battling a drug problem by attacking it's supply we should instead attack the demand. Answer the questions of "WHY" are people seeking to use recreational drugs. Are there things that can be done to alleviate the root cause. Is it in response to a pleasure seeking desire? Are there various social issues at play? Those are the things people should be looking at to reduce cannibis abuse.

That's if their even actually concerned with reducing abuse in the first place and not just looking to have their religious views and morals impressed upon others.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:28 am

To answer part of your question. At least 30% of use is medical and related to PTSD. We could cut that back considerably if we did something useful to cut back on child abuse.

For heroin about 50% of male users and 70% of female users are treating PTSD from childhood sexual assault. Fortunately heroin use is only prevalent in about .3% of the population.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:24 pm

There are other means to treat PTSD that do not require drug use.
Your argument supposses that that only means to treat PTSD is drug use, and that is a fallacy. Maybe you should spend some time talking to Dr. Heidi Kraft or others who really know what they are talking about when speaking to treatment of PTSD instead of continually preaching your invalid Internet Genius single solution theory that drugs make all things better. There is another way, and for your own good, you should try it.

But, your judgement may also be clouded by an addiction. Pot is addictive as shown conclusively in the recent conclusion of an Australian study.

Drug use suppresses symptoms as part of an overall desire to seek escape. Escapism is the primary path to later total failure on the part of the person involved. It is a spiralling death orbit that sucks in many.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:13 pm

There are other means to treat PTSD that do not require drug use.

Well sure. But none of them work. I have studied the matter exhaustively and can tell you there is currently only one cure for PTSD - remove the trauma and wait. Sometimes a lifetime. Sometimes more.

In the mean time drug use helps keep the patient calm.

Now if the drug is alcohol no one cares. But if the drug is pot or opiates people (the ones without the problem) get crazy. Fortunately that cohort is dying out. It looks like Colorado and possibly Washington will vote to legalize in 6 weeks. That is bound to make a LOT of OFs crazy.

But heck. If you have some studies on the matter I have missed I'd be glad to give them a look.

BTW the VA approves pot for PTSD. They can't prescribe it of course but they at least are allowed to tacitly approve.

From: http://safeaccessnow.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=5623

Tony Demin for The New York Times

David Fox, an Army veteran, at home in Montana. He uses medical marijuana to help quiet the pain from neuropathy.
By DAN FROSCH
Published: July 23, 2010

DENVER — The Department of Veterans Affairs will formally allow patients treated at its hospitals and clinics to use medical marijuana in states where it is legal, a policy clarification that veterans have sought for several years.

A department directive, expected to take effect next week, resolves the conflict in veterans facilities between federal law, which outlaws marijuana, and the 14 states that allow medicinal use of the drug, effectively deferring to the states.

The policy will not permit department doctors to prescribe marijuana. But it will address the concern of many patients who use the drug that they could lose access to their prescription pain medication if caught.

Under department rules, veterans can be denied pain medications if they are found to be using illegal drugs. Until now, the department had no written exception for medical marijuana.

And Pages and pages of stuff here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=VA+and+ ... =firefox-a

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:17 pm

Ironic isn't it. If you take illegal drugs for pain you will be denied pain medication.

It is like the people making these policies took special stupid pills.

I wonder which pharma makes them? They have got to be raking it in.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm

Addiction is a figment of addled brains.

This is addiction:

People in chronic pain chronically take pain relievers.

The pain goes away and so does the desire to medicate it.

That is addiction.

It is not some special force conjured up by drugs. That is magical thinking. Superstition. Funny. The superstitious have a lot of trouble dealing with their beliefs. "It is not a belief." Is the common refrain. "I have facts."

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." - Max Planck's statement,

Not even science can convince believers. Funny that.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:31 pm

Well sure. But none of them work. I have studied the matter exhaustively and can tell you there is currently only one cure for PTSD - remove the trauma and wait. Sometimes a lifetime. Sometimes more.

No true at all, and the heart of your myth.

And the VA does not approve, they have only decided to not hold accountable those who do use pot in states where "medical" is legal. And personally, I think medical is a crock being flaunted by way more abusers than legitimate users. it is no accident Hollywood leads the campaign.

If your theories were correct, then thousands of re-deployers would not be cleared to deploy. On average, with effective therapy, it takes 4-6 months for a patient to deal with a PTSD event, and that does not require drug use.
The key issue is to get them in the door to a professional. In the military in particular, as well as society as a whole, there is some stigma associated with walking in the door. The military, in particular, has made some large strides in the past few years to remove the stigma, and as a result has seen a growth in seekers of treatment, as well as success in such.

To borrow from Dr. Kraft and her collegues, "it is ok to not be ok".

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:57 am

No true at all, and the heart of your myth.

Well fine. I asked for evidence of effective treatments. So far you have provided none. So I consider them a myth because several decades of my research into the matter have provided no evidence of same.

OTOH these Vets in Colorado have an opinion on the matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEnjYprPqmk

Now of course it is anecdotal. But we see the same anecdotes over and over. Perhaps the government should allow some research into the matter. What are they afraid of?

And pot is not a treatment. If merely keeps the symptoms under control. Now the standard is to use anti-depressants when drugs are indicated. And guess what? Pot is an anti-depressant. Since different drugs work differently for different people we ought to allow that pot might work for some people where other drugs do not.

All this drug prejudice was fomented by a coalition of Progressive Conservatives and Progressives around the end of the 1800s. Since I know you are not a Progressive you must be a Progressive Conservative. Because if you were a Conservative you would say the old values (the drugs are legal) are the correct values. And it was a radical experiment (which has failed) that made them illegal.

Well things do change. It was once a radical notion that government should mostly leave people alone. Hardly any one takes that notion seriously anymore even in America.

paperburn1 · Post by **paperburn1** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:52 am

MSimon wrote:
No true at all, and the heart of your myth.
Well fine. I asked for evidence of effective treatments. So far you have provided none. So I consider them a myth because several decades of my research into the matter have provided no evidence of same.

even in America.

Home > Diseases and Conditions > Post-traumatic stress disorder
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Recommended reading: Combined pharmacotherapy and psychological therapies for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
PTSD is a potentially debilitating anxiety disorder triggered by exposure to a traumatic experience such as an interpersonal event like physical or sexual assault, exposure to disaster or accidents, combat or witnessing a traumatic event. There are three main clusters of symptoms: firstly, those related to re‐experiencing the event; secondly, those related to avoidance and arousal; and thirdly, th... more
A.D.A.M. Medical Encyclopedia.
Post-traumatic stress disorder

PTSD

Last reviewed: February 13, 2012.
Post-traumatic stress disorder is a type of anxiety disorder. It can occur after you've seen or experienced a traumatic event that involved the threat of injury or death.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
PTSD can occur at any age. It can follow a natural disaster such as a flood or fire, or events such as:
•Assault
•Domestic abuse
•Prison stay
•Rape
•Terrorism
•War
For example, the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 may have caused PTSD in some people who were involved, in people who saw the disaster, and in people who lost relatives and friends.
Veterans returning home from a war often have PTSD.
The cause of PTSD is unknown. Psychological, genetic, physical, and social factors are involved. PTSD changes the body's response to stress. It affects the stress hormones and chemicals that carry information between the nerves (neurotransmitters).
It is not known why traumatic events cause PTSD in some people but not others. Having a history of trauma may increase your risk for getting PTSD after a recent traumatic event.
Symptoms
Symptoms of PTSD fall into three main categories:
. "Reliving" the event, which disturbs day-to-day activity
•Flashback episodes, where the event seems to be happening again and again
•Repeated upsetting memories of the event
•Repeated nightmares of the event
•Strong, uncomfortable reactions to situations that remind you of the event
2. Avoidance
•Emotional "numbing," or feeling as though you don't care about anything
•Feeling detached
•Being unable to remember important aspects of the trauma
•Having a lack of interest in normal activities
•Showing less of your moods
•Avoiding places, people, or thoughts that remind you of the event
•Feeling like you have no future
3. Arousal
•Difficulty concentrating
•Startling easily
•Having an exaggerated response to things that startle you
•Feeling more aware (hypervigilance)
•Feeling irritable or having outbursts of anger
•Having trouble falling or staying asleep
You might feel guilt about the event (including "survivor guilt"). You might also have some of the following symptoms, which are typical of anxiety, stress, and tension:
•Agitation or excitability
•Dizziness
•Fainting
•Feeling your heart beat in your chest
•Headache
Signs and tests
There are no tests that can be done to diagnose PTSD. The diagnosis is made based on certain symptoms.
Your health care provider may ask for how long you have had symptoms. This will help your health care provider know if you have PTSD or a similar condition called Acute Stress Disorder (ASD).
•In PTSD, symptoms are present for at least 30 days.
•In ASD, symptoms will be present for a shorter period of time.
Your health care provider may also do mental health exams, physical exams, and blood tests to look for other illnesses that are similar to PTSD.
Treatment
Treatment can help prevent PTSD from developing after a trauma. A good social support system may also help protect against PTSD.
If PTSD does occur, a form of treatment called "desensitization" may be used.
•This treatment helps reduce symptoms by encouraging you to remember the traumatic event and express your feelings about it.
•Over time, memories of the event should become less frightening.
Support groups, where people who have had similar experiences share their feelings, may also be helpful.
People with PTSD may also have problems with:
•Alcohol or other substance abuse
•Depression
•Related medical conditions
In most cases, these problems should be treated before trying desensitization therapy.
Medicines that act on the nervous system can help reduce anxiety and other symptoms of PTSD. Antidepressants, including selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), can be effective in treating PTSD. Other anti-anxiety and sleep medicines may also be helpful.
References
1.Bisson J, Andrew M. Psychological treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007;(3):CD003388.
2.Hetrick SE, Purcell R, Garner B, Parslow B. Combined pharmacotherapy and psychological therapies for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2010;(7):CD007316.
3.Roberts NP, Kitchiner NJ, Kenardy J, Bisson JI. Early psychological interventions to treat acute traumatic stress symptoms. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2010;(3):CD007944.
4.Gilbertson MW, Orr SP, Rauch SL, Pitman RK. Trauma and posttraumatic stress disorder. In: Stern TA, Rosenbaum JF, Fava M, Biederman J, Rauch SL, eds. Massachusetts General Hospital Comprehensive Clinical Psychiatry. 1st ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Mosby Elsevier; 2008:chap 34.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealt ... .treatment
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/post-t ... er/DS00246
http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/guid ... s-disorder

Google has 19 million hits on treatment.

If your really serious about treatment options I am visting in Freeport ILL in a few weeks and I can arrange for some treatment options. But only if your serious I don't have time to waste on someone that just likes to smoke.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:14 pm

Hmmm, 19 Million hits.

PTSD can be treated. It is best treated whent he patient is finally willing to come to clear terms with the inducing event(s) and put them in conctext. This is best done when the patient is clear. That means, not suppressing via drugs or other mechanisms.

Drugs, like pot, are a means of falsely altering ones reality. And yes, you are correct, stress can and does drive some people to seek alternate realities. And in doing so they practice avoidance, and most eventual suffer more than if they just dealt with the reality up front. The avoidance pattern generally leads to avoidance and irresponsibility in other areas which over time leads to a general accellerating decline in quality of life.

Your single solution is no solution at all.

Take Paperburn up on his offer. Join us in the real world. You have much to offer.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:34 pm

Yep, drugs are fine. Let's legalize them all.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... =obnetwork

Obvious media bias, I mean who would believe that someone whacked out on PCP or Meth would do such things. Crazyness.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:11 pm

ladajo wrote:Yep, drugs are fine. Let's legalize them all.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... =obnetwork

Obvious media bias, I mean who would believe that someone whacked out on PCP or Meth would do such things. Crazyness.

How many alcoholics died last week?

And we will eventually legalize them all.

BTW the therapy mentioned does not work for everyone. I know a person who it was tried on and it made the condition worse. So yes. There are treatments and some may work for some people. If you can afford the shrink and the years it may take. At a tenth of a cent a dose pot is cheaper. Even heroin at a few cents a dose for the most severe cases is cheaper. Besides legal opiates in the black market now exceed the illegal ones.

And why will we legalize? As Tancredo says - trying to stop the supply is futile. And no one is effectively working the demand side. Child abuse. Fighting drugs is much sexier than trying to get parents to stop hitting their kids - or worse.

And then you also have the natural effect of any prohibition. The bootleggers control government.

"The Latin American drug cartels have stretched their tentacles much deeper into our lives than most people believe. It's possible they are calling the shots at all levels of government."
- William Colby, former CIA Director, 1995

I take the Conservative position. Time to end the radical experiment of trying to control people's private appetites.

Or to put it another way: drug control works about as well as gun control. Guns kill people too. You think banning them will reduce those numbers?

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:05 pm

BTW the therapy mentioned does not work for everyone. I know a person who it was tried on and it made the condition worse.

Thought you said years of research said that nothing else worked.

Or your one possible data point is fully conclusive?

As far as time, recognized experts (vice unrecognized internet geniuses) state it takes on average 4 to 6 months.

Teahive · Post by **Teahive** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:32 pm

ladajo wrote:The key issue is to get them in the door to a professional. In the military in particular, as well as society as a whole, there is some stigma associated with walking in the door. The military, in particular, has made some large strides in the past few years to remove the stigma, and as a result has seen a growth in seekers of treatment, as well as success in such.

No doubt social stigma is an important factor, but I suspect other factors such as an unwillingness to admit the severity of the problem, or fear of the treatment itself, to be bigger hurdles.
Cost might play a role, too.

To borrow from Dr. Kraft and her collegues, "it is ok to not be ok".

Why not "it is ok to use drugs", then? (Note "use", not "abuse".)