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Magnetoshell Aerobraking & Aerodynamics
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:25 am
by Aero
I found this topic on the nasaspaceflight forum and pretty blatantly copied it over.
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/oct/early_s ... rtley.html
From the above link -
The Plasma Magnetoshell is a high-Beta (the ratio of plasma to magnetic field energy density) dipole plasma configuration which would initially be populated with ambient atmospheric gases. This plasma is formed, sustained, and expanded with an electrodeless Rotating Magnetic Field (RMF), which has been shown in previous experiments to generate the required, fully ionized, high temperature magnetized plasma. RMF plasma formation induces large currents in the plasma that inflate and maintain the large-scale magnetic structure. The primary drag-inducing interaction between the magnetically confined plasma ions and the incoming neutral atmospheric particles is that of charge exchange, which has the largest cross section. After a charge exchange, the now magnetized atmospheric ion reacts its directional momentum (in the frame of the spacecraft) onto the magnet via field line bending and stretching
I found the topic here, and google also found news on Nextbigfuture. It is all pretty much the same report.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... 953777#new
Do we think it will work? and will it work for recovery of first and second stage rockets?
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:34 am
by Skipjack
I first had that idea a looong time ago. I was thinking of using it as an additional heatshield for an RLV. Basically as a means to reduce the load on a more traditional TPS. So you can get away with something more lightweight even in zones that would normally get high heatloads. I would think it particularly useful for (wingless) VTOL vehicles. The biggest problem is that AFAIK, right now the magnets still weight a lot and so you really dont gain much over a more traditional TPS. Plus you have the problem that the lower your speed gets (and thus the less plasma you have), the less effective the system is.
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:10 am
by Betruger
Skipjack wrote:I first had that idea a looong time ago.
Devil, details
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:57 pm
by Aero
Betruger wrote:Skipjack wrote:I first had that idea a looong time ago.
Devil, details
Yes, what did you do with the idea? Did it work?
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:55 pm
by Skipjack
Well actually I had discussed it on the old alt.space newsnet group. People basically told me to shut up and that it would never work. So I gave up on it (I was in no position to do anything with it otherwise anyway). If you can find an archive of the newsgroup, you can try finding my post there, maybe. Anyway, I am really glad that this idea is getting some traction now.
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:03 pm
by Betruger
Aero wrote:Betruger wrote:Skipjack wrote:I first had that idea a looong time ago.
Devil, details
Yes, what did you do with the idea? Did it work?
Ask Skipjack.
The point was... I don't doubt myself that at least a few other people thought of this. If for no other reason that this 'shield'-like solution must have inspired many researchers with geeky tendencies to look for a way to make it work.
The devil is always in the details for even engineering schemes that genuinely are as simple in design IOW elegantly inspired by nature's own simplicity, viz Polywell, but whose execution's contrasted by tons of subtle but absolutely essential details that must be got just right; again, viz Polywell.
In fact I'm pretty sure I remember someone proposing this scheme back on Space.com's Uplink.
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:36 pm
by Skipjack
I think that the basic idea is pretty straight forward and I am sure that a lot of people have thought of it before.
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:25 pm
by Betruger
And it's too bad not everyone can think of these things, IE recognize the simple principles at the foundation of many/most elegant engineering solutions, and actually follow thru with empirical test in their garage.
So close yet so far - we're spoiled compared to tinkerers from even just 50 years ago, and yet still so far from fast-fabbing truly anything we want as required for realizing all these amateur day dreams.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:18 am
by paperburn1
Skipjack wrote:I think that the basic idea is pretty straight forward and I am sure that a lot of people have thought of it before.
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-F ... wsNum=2667
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:30 am
by Skipjack
Yupp thats the one I was referring to. I think the launcher had a failure and they never ended up testing it, but I might be wrong here. I have not been able to find any news on the project...
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:52 am
by DeltaV
Betruger wrote: And it's too bad not everyone can think of these things, IE recognize the simple principles at the foundation of many/most elegant engineering solutions, and actually follow thru with empirical test in their garage.
So close yet so far - we're spoiled compared to tinkerers from even just 50 years ago, and yet still so far from fast-fabbing truly anything we want as required for realizing all these amateur day dreams.
A big part of the problem is that the buying power of the dollar and the effective wealth of middle class citizens has been declining since 1973, making hobbyist/amateur research
much more expensive than it used to be, relative to the necessities of life. When I was a teen I built techie stuff on a meager income that I could never afford today. The Home Depot bill for even the simplest project is shocking these days.
And, the number of small companies providing cool, but affordable, supplies and equipment for such research has dwindled. What's left is just a shadow of the former, post-Sputnik-panic glory.
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:29 pm
by DeltaV
Plasma Magnetoshell for Aerobraking and Aerocapture
IEPC-2011-304
Presented at the 32nd International Electric Propulsion Conference,
Wiesbaden, Germany
September 11 – 15, 2011
John Slough, David Kirtley, and Anthony Pancotti
MSNW LLC, Redmond, WA, 98052, USA
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:45 pm
by Skipjack
John Slough does all the cool stuff! He is one of those people that I would really love to meet in person and have a casual chat with, one day, just for fun.