Talk-Polywell.org

A good post on energy usage and it's relation to GDP:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/11/16/constructal-gdp

That message is very closely related to something I noticed by looking at the inflation-corrected price of transportation fuel.

I looked at unleaded regular prices in constant 2009 dollars from 1970 to fall 2009, and saw that we had a recession every time fuel prices exceeded about $2.25 to 2.50 / gallon (2009 dollars). The higher the price spike and / or the longer the price spike, the deeper the recession.

This current really bad recession was preceded by 2+ years of $3+/gal. "Surprise, surprise", as Gomer Pyle used to say.

Don't expect it to end anytime soon. Prices are still over $2.50/gal, and for the last 2 years, diesel has been more expensive than gasoline, unlike the previous 40 years.

3 dollars a gal is still pretty cheap compared to many places around the world, including Brazil and western europe...

I got the calculator and world-book out myself on this question [some time ago ].

See if you like;

viewtopic.php?p=34510#34510

US fuel prices would look about like those in Europe, if the environmental clean-up and health costs were in the per-gallon price, like they are in Europe. Over here in the US, those costs are paid for mainly out of other taxes, at one level or another. Superfund, state medicare expenses, etc.

The base oil commodity price is pretty much the same worldwide. It's only politically-clever "moving stuff from one pocket to another" that makes US fuel prices look low. Myself, I don't really think that's so very clever.

ah, but paying environmental cleanup costs for oil spills out of a tax on oil would just make way too much sense.

GW Johnson wrote:US fuel prices would look about like those in Europe, if the environmental clean-up and health costs were in the per-gallon price, like they are in Europe. Over here in the US, those costs are paid for mainly out of other taxes, at one level or another. Superfund, state medicare expenses, etc.

The base oil commodity price is pretty much the same worldwide. It's only politically-clever "moving stuff from one pocket to another" that makes US fuel prices look low. Myself, I don't really think that's so very clever.

I like this approach! We should apply this methodolgy to the cost of having Democrat Presidents.


Andrew Jackson: First Democrat President, and First President to ignore the Lawful ruling of the United States Supreme court. Illegally Forced the 5 civilized tribes off their land.

Repair costs? Enormous! To Be Determined.



Woodrow Wilson: Pushed for the Income Tax, ordered subordinates to stifle dissent (This is where J. Edgar Hoover got his start) and initiated the League of Nations which evolved into the Hapless and worse than useless U.N. Against his solemn word and campaign promise, Involved us in World War I. As a result, Germany was overpowered and forced to sue for peace under terms guaranteed to wreck the German economy. Result? World War II! Millions dead.


Cost? Incalculable! Consequences still yet to be resolved.


Franklin D. Roosevelt: Made the Depression worse. Instituted communistic programs in this nation that have not yet finished wrecking the country. Appointed ~16 years worth of Liberal kook judges, thereby screwing up the judiciary and the legal system for generations, put Japanese Americans in Internment Camps, and established policies which are still causing damage today.


Cost? Trillions of dollars worth of damage. Fallout not yet settled.

Harry Truman: Refused to Allow Patton to start a war with USSR while we could win, Refused to Listen to Curtis Le May's advice to start a war with Russia while we could win. Refused to grant Chang Kai Shek's request for surplus American Air Transport Aircraft to move his troops to confront Mao's People's Liberation Army. Refused to let Macarthur finish the Korean War and repudiate China when we had the chance.
Appointed more Liberal Kook judges to intentionally misapply our laws.

Result? China becoming communist, and thereby enabled the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and the millions of resulting dead.

Cost? Trillions lost, Millions killed, suffering not yet abated.



John F. Kennedy: Lost the election. But! due to FRAUD in Chicago, was declared winner. Threw away the Eisenhower invasion plan for Cuba, sent the Cuban's in without telling them he'd personally withdrawn military support for their effort. Gets thousands killed and destroys the credibility of the United States. CAUSES Castro to demand Russian nuclear missiles to be placed in Cuba. Very nearly gets 30 million Americans killed as a result. Only defuses the situation by secretly trading US missile advantage in Greece for Russian missiles in Cuba. Gets us into Vietnam.
Appointed more Liberal Kook judges to intentionally misapply our laws.

Cost? Millions Almost Killed, America's Word shown to be worthless. Repercussions not yet over.


Lyndon B. Johnson: Totally screwed up Vietnam. Soured America on the war effort allowing the North Vietnamese to eventually take over the country. Started the "Great Society" program, which was a trillion dollar boondoggle that INCREASED poverty, INCREASED dependence on Government, INCREASED the numbers of criminals roaming the streets.
Appointed more Liberal Kook judges to intentionally misapply our laws.

Cost? Trillions spent. Thousands/Millions dead. Nothing good to show for it.

James E. Carter: Gave away the Panama Canal, preached appeasement to our enemies, helped overthrow the Shah of Iran thereby ushering in the next several decades of death and misery in the Middle east. His Weakness prompted the Russians to invade Afghanistan. Complete hapless failure and flop. Started the CRA. (community reinvestment act.)
Appointed more Liberal Kook judges to intentionally misapply our laws.

Cost? Millions Dead (Iran/Iraq war) Possibly future millions (if not billions) dead from a warmongering nuclear Iran. Trillions spent in trying to clean up his mess.


William J. Blythe/Clinton. Got elected through the efforts of Ross Perot and the unethical liberal media. First effort of his office was to overturn the ban on Gays in the military. Instituted illegal/unconstitutional gun control, invaded Haiti, committed all sorts of unethical/illegal behavior regarding subordinates and political enemies. Inexplicable Deaths seemed to surround his friends and confidants. Expanded the CRA (using racial data collected by the initial CRA) to force banks to loan money to bad risk borrowers, thereby causing the subsequent housing market bubble which imperiled the nations financial solvency. Appointed more Liberal Kook judges to intentionally misapply our laws.

Cost? Thousands if not millions of Lost homes. Billions if not Trillions of wasted/lost dollars. Idiot Judges all across the country further rotting out the legal system.


Barack Obama: The epitome of catastrophe. Worst President the Nation will EVER have.

Cost? Too early to tell, but if he allows Iran to nuke Israel, he will be the first person to be singlehandedly responsible for the deaths of over a billion people.




All of this was just off the top of my head. It is by no means a complete list of all the various and sundry ways in which Democrat presidents have been horrible disasters for the nation and humanity in general. If people were just more familiar with History they would know better than to ever give Democrats a chance in power.


If people only knew their history, every Democrat would come with a warning label. DANGER! Hazardous to your Life!

The costs of oil, (even using the indirect consequences you cite) is trivial compared to the cost of Democrats.

happyjack27 wrote:ah, but paying environmental cleanup costs for oil spills out of a tax on oil would just make way too much sense.

Yeah, this makes as much sense as asserting Agricultural costs should include the cost of the armed forces defending the land.

If farmers had to pay the entire cost of the military, they would think TWICE before they engaged in any farming!

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uumm,, yeah... if you had to pay for the full cost of the sanitation system every time you took a crap i'm sure you'd think twice about it. what was your point again?

All markets are distorted by somebody somewhere. Just because they can.

We get what we allow to happen. Best justice money can buy, etc.

And, BTW, with few exceptions I think all kinds of politicians are bad, not just Democrats. I'm pissed off at 'em all.

In general, most consumer products tend to include most of the hidden clean-up and health costs in their prices. The ones that don't, like oil products, tend to be the ones that give us the most grief as a society.

It's something to think about, anyway. Just remember, a free market and a market free of rules are absolutely not the same thing.

GW Johnson wrote:All markets are distorted by somebody somewhere. Just because they can.

We get what we allow to happen. Best justice money can buy, etc.

And, BTW, with few exceptions I think all kinds of politicians are bad, not just Democrats. I'm pissed off at 'em all.

In general, most consumer products tend to include most of the hidden clean-up and health costs in their prices. The ones that don't, like oil products, tend to be the ones that give us the most grief as a society.

It's something to think about, anyway. Just remember, a free market and a market free of rules are absolutely not the same thing.

There are many bad republican politicians. I won't say they are equally to blame with the democrats, but they ARE to blame. Usually they don't screw up on such a colossal scale as do the democrats, but Abraham Lincoln is a conspicuous exception.

As for the Free Market, even Adam Smith acknowledged that there would be evil people who attempted to take advantage of the market, and that monopolies should not be permitted.

Often I surmise that much of what goes on in the top tier of government among democrats AND republicans is an effort to protect the rent receiving by their various powerful constituencies and that much of their efforts seem designed to prevent anyone from working their way into the circle of wealth and power.

Regulations and taxes that are of no consequence to established powers are a serious difficulty for anyone wishing to compete with them. The Liberal constituency's concern regarding corporations etc. does seem to have some real basis behind it.

As for the way oil costs are calculated, it appears to me that they calculate them the way they do because that is the way they have always done so. Consider it to be a form of economic inertia. In the early days of oil, no one concerned themselves with cleaning it up or air pollution. That stuff came later.

happyjack27 wrote:uumm,, yeah... if you had to pay for the full cost of the sanitation system every time you took a crap i'm sure you'd think twice about it. what was your point again?

That it's unfair to count costs which are not directly related to the product in question. It was my effort at a Reductio ad absurdum.

The proper question is not who should be plundered how much for whose benefit, but why we allow anyone to be plundered at all.