The Icarus righteousness thread

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Betruger
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The Icarus righteousness thread

Post by Betruger »

icarus wrote:betruge:
Then let's hear it. How would you rule out the M-E conjecture so definitively? It would certainly save everyone time and undue attention. By your own argument you would have an opportunity to steer the experimenters towards a quicker end to what you pretend is travesty. How is M-E so undoubtedly wrong that it doesn't warrant any experimental work to either substantiate or eliminate it?
But you wouldn't be informed enough to vet it, by your admission. To wit, you've been avoiding answering my first question for the last week. I don't mind that really, its the personal abuse and snideness that gets me.

I wouldn't want to prick your bubble of ignorance and fantasy unnecessarily, and its been made plain that you like it inside the bubble so I'll leave you to it. I've probably left enough behind to settle the question anyway, if you follow it through honestly and rigorously. Enough said.

Mach's principle is an elegant idea though and the true (electromagnetic?) nature of inertia is an age old question worth pursuing, I've never said otherwise, as much as others have tried to put words into my mouth (to the extent of fabricating quotes wth!?). There is something there, this is not it though.

FWIW, I was reading Woodward's "Killing Time" 13 years ago, not long after it was put up online.
"But you wouldn't be informed enough to vet it, by your admission." - where is this admission?

I never got past the fundamental stage of our argument because I thought and still think that it's flawed at that early point already.

You insist that I made some pretention or other about M-E. When I never did. It's not hard to see why I'd be suspicious of your objectivity. Even less when you haven't shown any reason for M-E being undoubtedly wrong. Never mind when you consider your pattern here of doing what you accuse others of: failing to have the "dignity" you preach - of leaving this thread to M-E debate and taking your interpersonal politics to a separate thread, of putting words in others mouths - I never argued anything about M-E and yet you're all over the place with assertions that everyone but you has some pathological bent for fantastical theories and clings to their bubble of ignorance, yadda yadda -- And yet no refutal of 93143 or MSimon's arguments other than high horse deflections; another instance of projection.

On top of that I'm actually just disinterested in it. My only satisfaction is seeing good debate here. As crazy as that might be to you. If you can't even entertain the idea that the above is true, that as someone who obviously has an axe to grind contrary to good debate you produce zero motivation for me to debate anything at all about M-E, then no, there's nothing to say. In fact - again note the irony here - why did you even speak up in the first place? You had nothing to contribute except how lowly is everyone merely entertaining the prospects and pros and cons of M-E conjecture. Why then would I care about proving myself in your eyes? Do I get an Icarus certificate of approval? Is there some benefit to trading my diplomas and work experience in for it?

And the trigger to all this was me pointing people to what the conjecture is. Which is the only reason I'm not just ignoring your posts. It just blows my mind that someone might pretend that helping put everyone on the same page about WHAT THE CONJECTURE IS regardless if it's right or wrong, so as to fuel healthy debate either way, is tantamount to supporting that conjecture. That it MUST mean that they have not the slightest understanding of physics. Being the science and puzzles geek that I am, I can't help but giggle.

icarus
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Post by icarus »

Quote:
bedreggers said:
There's no violation of CoM. You're tugging at the rest of the universe.

Since you're serving up the interesting flavoured Kool-Aid (that has strange green glow) I'll ask you the obvious question.

What happens to the center of mass of the universe when you do this 'tugging' thing on it that you are talking about?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

icarus wrote:
Quote:
bedreggers said:
There's no violation of CoM. You're tugging at the rest of the universe.

Since you're serving up the interesting flavoured Kool-Aid (that has strange green glow) I'll ask you the obvious question.

What happens to the center of mass of the universe when you do this 'tugging' thing on it that you are talking about?
What happens to the center of mass when you run an explosion backwards?

Or to put it in terms you can understand: what happens to the center of mass when unlike charges attract each other?

And you have had your fun with the insults, but I'm getting annoyed. If it gets to the point of anger......
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

icarus
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Post by icarus »

MSimon:
And you have had your fun with the insults,
Honestly, you've lost me, which insults?

Betruger fabricates a quote from me, using it to essentially call me "a pretentious prick" and you say nothing as moderator, and now for some unknown reason you accuse me of having fun with insults? I'm lost, I'll just stop posting again in case the hotheads escalate it.

Btw, it is obvious that M-E thrust is nothing at all like an explosion running backwards or like-charges attracting, and you definitely could never supply a proof of that, just to put it in terms you can understand.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

icarus wrote:MSimon:
And you have had your fun with the insults,
Honestly, you've lost me, which insults?
bedreggers

If you want to keep up with the insults get more creative. Better yet avoid them all together.

On my blog there is a guy who insults me regularly. I never respond. On occasion I will respond to his argument without even mentioning him (except for some very sly references from time to time.).

And I don't delete the insults. I leave them up to belittle the guy. (My moderation policy is pretty much the same as Joe's.)

Try it. It lowers the blood pressure considerably.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

icarus wrote:Btw, it is obvious that M-E thrust is nothing at all like an explosion running backwards or like-charges attracting, and you definitely could never supply a proof of that, just to put it in terms you can understand.
BTW you never answered my point about Feynman Volume II Chapter 28

Let me restate it: if mass is in part electromagnetic (TBD but theorized) why is the manipulation of mass by electrical means out of the question?
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kcdodd
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Post by kcdodd »

If mass is electromagnetic in nature, then so is the momentum associated with the mass.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

kcdodd wrote:If mass is electromagnetic in nature, then so is the momentum associated with the mass.
That would be Vol II Chapter 27.
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kcdodd
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Post by kcdodd »

The interaction between matter and field is still quite misunderstood. But, I do not think you can violate conservation of momentum. If matter is EM in nature, it just makes it that much less probable that you could do something like this, because the field will itself be self consistent.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

kcdodd wrote:The interaction between matter and field is still quite misunderstood. But, I do not think you can violate conservation of momentum. If matter is EM in nature, it just makes it that much less probable that you could do something like this, because the field will itself be self consistent.
That would be Vol II Chapter 27.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

kcdodd
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Post by kcdodd »

what is your point.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

kcdodd wrote:what is your point.
The EM field has a momentum component.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

kcdodd
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Post by kcdodd »

ok
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