Talk-Polywell.org

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http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... -they.html

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Yup. Sounds like our health system.

Problem with Brits is that they get all uppity when you point out to them that they can't do their job properly.

Yup. Sounds like regular humans are involved.

The two stories that get me, because it is not just about 'errors', it's beyond just negligence but is actual "wilfully acquired incompetence": One guy went to 13 different specialists several dozen times over a period of 3 years complaining about head pains. Eventually, the NHS barred him from further contact on the matter. He was later diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, too late to operate. In another case, a girl was allergic to penicillin and, being very wary of NHS incompetence, so put a very visible necklace around her neck to that effect and sat with her for 5 days and nights to make sure no-one went near her with penicillin. He has to leave her for 30 minutes and when he gets back - yeah, you guessed it - stone dead with penicillin anaphylaxis.

NHS budget is 90billion pounds a year, or so, and 10 billion per year of that is in negligency payments. And they talk about using the free market as a model for efficiency!?! Can you imagine a company that pays out over 10% of turnover in negligency payments?!

I am sure there are plenty of simillar stories from the US, where people have been denied treatments because they could not afford to pay for them, or where the insurance company refused to pay for them because of some reason, whatsoever.
Anyway, the British system is one of the worst in Europe. It is hardly a good benchmark.

Skipjack wrote:I am sure there are plenty of simillar stories from the US, where people have been denied treatments because they could not afford to pay for them, or where the insurance company refused to pay for them because of some reason, whatsoever.

Anyway, the British system is one of the worst in Europe. It is hardly a good benchmark.

It is one thing to be denied treatment. It is quite another to be treated badly.

The commenter at my article was from Norway. (I think).

And how do you keep things from getting worse when government runs out of funds due to low birthrates?

Part of the issue is complacency.

There are so many malingerers and old people bunging up the system that general practitioners (our front-line service whom we see in the first instance) just don't see really bad cases often enough. Same with the hospital staff. As a consequence they just don't seem to get familar with the difference between an unhealthy person and a dying person.

Maybe it should be a compulsory activity to go work in a 3rd world hospital for a while, that way they'll get to see the difference....

There is something to be said for making it more expensive to go see a doctor - in Australia, when I was there, they used to charge a small fee to go see the GP. That way, you thought twice about whether your sniffle was worth wasting the drs time. There are plenty of cases here in UK where GPs have sent kids home with severe (and ultimately fatal) meningitis because that is simply what they are used to doing now - send 'em home and see what happens. That's OK for 99% of cases 'cos there was nothing much wrong with them in the first place, but if you always do that then it is obvious you're gonna send some people away to die. And they do....

Free medicine can be some of the most expensive you can get.

Well, Austrias medicare is very, very good. It is better than Germanies. My wife says that she is being treated better here than she was in the US (ok, that is one opinion, but anyway). While we are among the leading countries when it comes to health care expenses, IIRC, we are still paying less than Canada, e.g. and waaaay less than the US.
At 8% of the income spent for healthcare, it is not sooo bad, actually.
The healthcare spendings are not what really bugs the system either. The age is a problem, as you say, but not so much for healthcare, much more for the pensions and retirement funds, as well as the rest of the social package, like unemployment money and all that. That is where the system has a real problem with the aging population. Healthcare is always at the edge, but that has been the same situation for some 25 years now and it is still working.

Skipjack wrote:Well, Austrias medicare is very, very good. It is better than Germanies. My wife says that she is being treated better here than she was in the US (ok, that is one opinion, but anyway). While we are among the leading countries when it comes to health care expenses, IIRC, we are still paying less than Canada, e.g. and waaaay less than the US.
At 8% of the income spent for healthcare, it is not sooo bad, actually.
The healthcare spendings are not what really bugs the system either. The age is a problem, as you say, but not so much for healthcare, much more for the pensions and retirement funds, as well as the rest of the social package, like unemployment money and all that. That is where the system has a real problem with the aging population. Healthcare is always at the edge, but that has been the same situation for some 25 years now and it is still working.

The problem with American Health care is that it is disconnected from reality both on the provider side, and the consumer side.

The prices the medical people charge are simply outrageous and in no way reflects a fair or reasonable approach to pricing.

The amount of indulgent misuse of the medical system by recipients is likewise all out of proportion to what is fair or reasonable.

It currently costs $1,500.00 / day for a room and bed in a hospital. People who let their insurance (or the government) pay for this, simply don't care that this is 4 times what might be reasonable. If people had to pay a substantial part of this cost, there would be negative feedback pressure to constrain costs.

Government paid medical care, and insurance paid medical care has eliminated competition and thrift. We are in effect suffering from government involvement in health care, but it is manifesting itself in America as ridiculously high prices, as opposed to rationing and ridiculously long waits and poor service as in other countries.


It's a terrible mess, and the only thing you can do to make it worse than it already is, is to add more Democrats.

as ridiculously high prices, as opposed to rationing and ridiculously long waits and poor service as in other countries.

Service in Austria is not poor. It is at least equal to the service in the US and that for a fraction of the cost. I can only tell you what several medical doctors that have the exerience told me.
We do not have any waiting times either. In fact, I have never had to wait for anything. Also, while in the US, e.g. a curitage is not always recommended to women with misscarriages (for cost reasons, because insurance does not cover it fully, or because the patient does not want to pay for it himself), it is a standard procedure for all women with misscarriages here. There are no waiting lines for that either, actually.
Same goes with any other procedure that I, or any family member of mine ever had done.
My sister currently works in Germany as a medical doctor and she says that the medical service in Austria is much better. She wants to have a baby soon, but due to the better service here, she is moving back to Austria. Interestingly, much of German medical care is done by private insurance companies.
Oh, Austria is currently, as a kind of trial, allowing some professions to "opt out" and get a plan with private insurance companies. Some people here are claiming that the competition from the government is hurting those insurance companies. Well, I guess Austria is once again different, because those private companies are doing very well and are happily selling those "opt out" policies, still managing to undercut the government. Geez, I wonder why they are not all going out of business...
Anyway, my mother is working at one of those "poor, struggling, abused" insurance companies and they do quite well.

Skipjack wrote:

as ridiculously high prices, as opposed to rationing and ridiculously long waits and poor service as in other countries.

Service in Austria is not poor. It is at least equal to the service in the US and that for a fraction of the cost. I can only tell you what several medical doctors that have the exerience told me.
We do not have any waiting times either. In fact, I have never had to wait for anything. Also, while in the US, e.g. a curitage is not always recommended to women with misscarriages (for cost reasons, because insurance does not cover it fully, or because the patient does not want to pay for it himself), it is a standard procedure for all women with misscarriages here. There are no waiting lines for that either, actually.
Same goes with any other procedure that I, or any family member of mine ever had done.
My sister currently works in Germany as a medical doctor and she says that the medical service in Austria is much better. She wants to have a baby soon, but due to the better service here, she is moving back to Austria. Interestingly, much of German medical care is done by private insurance companies.
Oh, Austria is currently, as a kind of trial, allowing some professions to "opt out" and get a plan with private insurance companies. Some people here are claiming that the competition from the government is hurting those insurance companies. Well, I guess Austria is once again different, because those private companies are doing very well and are happily selling those "opt out" policies, still managing to undercut the government. Geez, I wonder why they are not all going out of business...
Anyway, my mother is working at one of those "poor, struggling, abused" insurance companies and they do quite well.

America used to have a work ethic. It is not nearly as strong as it used to be. There is a massive army of lazy indolent Americans demanding the government feed them, clothe them, pay for their housing and medical care, and don't tell them how to behave in their bedroom, even if they do have 6 kids from 12 different guys.

Somehow, I don't think it's quite that bad in Austria.

I personally know people who routinely go to the Emergency room for sniffles or a stomach ache, and have run up $50,000.00 medical bills that they have not the slightest intention of paying. I know people who have had procedures such as Heart surgery, multiple child births, arm surgery, treatments for infections,
eye surgery, brain surgery, Dialysis, etc, who haven't and won't pay one G*dD@mn cent, and instead lets the government pay for all of these things.

The person I know who is currently getting dialysis has smoked for the last 40 years, and is still smoking! Refuses to stop! I know another person who had to keep taking the Oxygen mask off just to pull a drag on her cigarette! (she died) I know another person who's nose is being eaten off by cancer, (half of it is gone.) and still keeps smoking! I know several people who have died of lung and throat cancer, but smoked all the way to the end!


And Obama thinks the problem with American Health care is that we need to increase access to it ?

Yeah, he's a genius.


Anyway, my point is, Austria probably has a larger percentage of good quality citizens than America.

No, the conservatives don't want a value on the intangible things like the value of the fabric of society.

And here I though it was socialized medicine that killed him.

I guess us evil conservatives need to learn how to read.

David - does it run in your family or is it just you? Or were you being sarcastic.

BTW I was never qualified for any job I held. Makes me laugh. Why does it make you bitter?

Here's the thing about the death panels: without widespread euthanasia being put in place before 2020, possibly 2015, this country is economically wrecked. The only other option will be to raise the retirement age by one year every two years until it matches the average life expectancy. Only then will the system come back into financial balance.

IntLibber wrote:Here's the thing about the death panels: without widespread euthanasia being put in place before 2020, possibly 2015, this country is economically wrecked. The only other option will be to raise the retirement age by one year every two years until it matches the average life expectancy. Only then will the system come back into financial balance.

Perhaps it is the contrary. Get people retired off early after menopause age thus getting younger folk into good productive conditions (both industrially and biologically speaking) where they can support a family. That will help stabilise the society then and also help avoid layabout 12-kids-per-family professionally-unemployed types who have passed on their unemployable characteristics through 3 generations by freeing up posts at the bottom of the employment barrel. No work, no benefits. Working, be it 20hrs/week or 60, and having to pay for your family makes it difficult to have so many kids but makes it easier to have a few. Why should me genes be out-competed by those whose owners appear to be incapable of work?

I'm lead to believe that is what the Dutch did during the 70's and 80's and they encouraged the older generation to retire early, freeing up the industrial workplace to youngsters whose youth and energy then re-invigorated the place. (Not sure that's true, heard it 3rd hand, but it sounds plausible.)

Diogenes, I would say that Austrians and Americans have about the same work ethics. We do have lots of immigrants here however, that do not quite share that notion.
I also want to say that the US people are among the hardest workers that I have ever met.
Further, I think you are mixing up multiple issues. I think that you have to separate health care and other social services.
Most of the abuse, that you quoted has nothing to do with healthcare. These are more social insurance issues. Here in Austria, these are what make the system so expensive and hard to maintain. The health insurance part is doing much better. I guess couch potatoes dont get injured as much, gggg. The other issue is pensions. Austria ages much faster than the US even (only 1.4 children per woman). So we do feel the issue here. But again, that does not affect healthcare as much. One way of dealing with it here is to spend more on preventative medicine. Make sure that people get regular checkups, that cost little money and spend some money on education campaigns against smoking, sugar and cholesterol and you save yourself a lot of money for expensive treatments later.
Aging is a problem in any population though, even in the US, so people having many kids, is actually a good thing, unless you do not want to have a pension one day (someone will have to pay for that).
Personally, I dont think I ever want to retire (easily said at the age of 34 though, lol). Work keeps your brain fresh and agile. If you do not work, you become lazy, both physically and mentally. I know that a lot of americans work at places like Wallmart after their retirement, I also know a couple that bought a ranch in Texas and raise cattle now. Now these are not carreer prospects that match my idea of ideal, but IMHO it is better than doing nothing at all. In any case, I hope that I will have some money put aside for my retirement so I wont need any money from the government. Relying on that in times with such a lack of children is a very dangerous game and those couch potatoes that you quoted will soon realize that the money streams will run dry for them. They still make a minority of the population.
Here in Austria, a large part is actually self employed, running small 2 to 3 person companies. These people dont get much social services here (there is now some kind of unemployment fund for self employed people, but I think it is silly and not worth much anyway... I would rather not pay into it) and they usually dont make use of that anyway. These are who carry the society here. They are NOT rich and they often make less money than their employees, but they do work hard and they pay a lot of taxes. They are seldom sick, because they cant afford being off work much, so that too helps. This is why Austria is still healthy (pun intended).
Anyway, the point is that it is not the system that is bad, as it does work here and does work quite well. Healthcare here is very good without costing you an arm and a leg (ggg)and I proud of that and I do apreciate it for many reasons. If you want to avoid abuse, then put in saveguards against it.
Also, from what I gather, the people that you are affraid will abuse the system, are getting medicaid already, so how would that get worse, when there is a public options for healthcare?