Is Capitalism Evil?

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Jccarlton
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Is Capitalism Evil?

Post by Jccarlton »

Is Capitalism evil?
Yet another great piece from the American Thinker: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... vil_1.html
The real question is, is liberty evil? You can't have one without the other.

JLawson
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Re: Is Capitalism Evil?

Post by JLawson »

Jccarlton wrote:Is Capitalism evil?
Yet another great piece from the American Thinker:http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... vil_1.html
The real question is, is liberty evil? You can't have one without the other.
I would say that 'evil' is in the eye of the beholder on this. To the statist, the socialist, the marxist, the communist believer - then yes, liberty is 'evil'. You simply cannot allow people to make their own decisions - because some of those decisions are going to be wrong, they're going to cause pain and suffering to the folks making them, and it's much better by far for the government to be making their decisions for them and controlling them so they DON'T have the opportunity to make those mistakes.

Then there are those who believe that we, as a society, learn from our mistakes. Mistakes happen - you take precautions to limit the results and ramifications of those mistakes, but you allow people to fail and learn and pick themselves up and try again.

With the first, you have a society which is top-down organized, and only as strong (or as smart) as the folks in the top tier. It's also stratified, with two main groups - the controllers and the controlled. With the second, you have a bottom-up sort of organization, which has constructed itself in response to the needs of the people, not telling the people in the first place what they need.

Which is 'better' would depend on your political leanings, I guess. If you want stability - go for the first. If you want innovation and growth, then the second would seem preferable to me.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

As with many good things in life, capitalism can become evil, if taken to the extreme.
A little bit of control and a little bit of fairness is necessary. Otherwise you might end up with mafia like businesses.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

JLawson,

You left out the ability to adapt to changing circumstances.

Bottom up does that better - on reason is that the adaptation starts sooner.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Skipjack wrote:As with many good things in life, capitalism can become evil, if taken to the extreme.
A little bit of control and a little bit of fairness is necessary. Otherwise you might end up with mafia like businesses.
With socialism the mafia is the government. Or else as in Europe the aristocrats. Same thing really.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Heath_h49008
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Post by Heath_h49008 »

Socialism is fine way to eliminate human failings... so long as the controlling power is not subject to the same human foibles.

The obvious answer is either freedom, to limit the inevitable human weakness from becoming too powerful and corrupt, or a non-human control.

Please Skynet, come and save me from myself, Obama doesn't have your wisdom!

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

With socialism the mafia is the government. Or else as in Europe the aristocrats. Same thing really.
True that why the two should be in a balance. It is the amount of how much of what is good that is still undecided.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Skipjack wrote:
With socialism the mafia is the government. Or else as in Europe the aristocrats. Same thing really.
True that why the two should be in a balance. It is the amount of how much of what is good that is still undecided.
Greece is too much obviously. Spain as well. Italy - yep.

Europe as a whole is not reproducing. That may be another effect of making government more important than families for old age survival.

A look at long term economic growth shows Europe lagging by 1% a year over the USA. Long term that can leave big imbalances - although the current recession has leveled that some. In very bad times socialism may perform better. Is it worth giving up the good time gains? Not so far. Time will tell.

In any case even with an increasing population and somewhat limited socialism the socialism in the USA is unsustainable. How much worse off will Europe be than the US in coming years? Much worse.

We need only look at California and Illinois in the US to see that the promises made can't be kept. This is especially true of government pensions.

And you know the rule: anything that can not continue will not continue.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

hanelyp
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Post by hanelyp »

Is capitalism evil? That depends on what you mean by it. The term is commonly used to refer to widely differing economic systems: The free market on one side, or corporatism on the other. The free market, based on the basic rules against fraud and coercion, I'd rate as the most ethical of economic systems. Corporatism, based on favors from the powerful in government, I'd rate as corrupt.

As for a command economy being more stable, I'd argue the contrary. While free individuals make mistakes, they rarely make the same mistake at the same time absent some overwhelming influence. A command economy, on the other hand, has everyone driven to the same decision, good or ill.

Luzr
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Re: Is Capitalism Evil?

Post by Luzr »

JLawson wrote:If you want stability - go for the first.
Not quite sure about this, there were not many strongly centralized societies that have been stable for more than hunderd years.

Looks like freedom brings many minor strugles which in the end result in adaptation while controlled centralized societies maintain establishment for longer periods which tend to end with catastrophic collapses.

Luzr
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Post by Luzr »

MSimon wrote: In any case even with an increasing population and somewhat limited socialism the socialism in the USA is unsustainable. How much worse off will Europe be than the US in coming years? Much worse.
Wrong question. You should rather be interested how much worse US will be than China in 20-30 years.

OTOH, this is not necessary a bad process. There is nothing bad about Chinesse being rich. And for the record, Europe can be less productive than USA, but it is still far past 'first post-scarcity point' (getting food and clothing is virtually effort-free), a good place to live.
And you know the rule: anything that can not continue will not continue.
Which applies universally, for Europe too.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

China does not allow the free flow of information. The fuel of economic growth in the 21st Century.

They also have demographic imbalances caused by central control. And then there are the state run enterprises.

The odds of them surviving 50 more years are low.

Most likely they will grow and then hit a wall. Japanese style. So maybe not collapse - stasis.

Right now they are fine. The growth is throwing off enough capital to paper over the problems. When they hit a growth wall (that may in fact be happening now) they will have trouble keeping the country together.

Real estate is in as much trouble in China as it is in the rest of the world. It just hasn't cracked yet. It will. The signs are all there.

====

Of course the problem with liberty is that you can't plan. And socialism depends on things going according to plan.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Some China posts I have done:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... reats.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... dolts.html

China's economy is overheated:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... s-too.html

Real estate in China:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... bling.html

The last two links are especially important to get an overview of the real estate market in China.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Luzr
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Post by Luzr »

MSimon wrote:China does not allow the free flow of information. The fuel of economic growth in the 21st Century.

They also have demographic imbalances caused by central control. And then there are the state run enterprises.

The odds of them surviving 50 more years are low.

Most likely they will grow and then hit a wall. Japanese style. So maybe not collapse - stasis.

Right now they are fine. The growth is throwing off enough capital to paper over the problems. When they hit a growth wall (that may in fact be happening now) they will have trouble keeping the country together.
All of that is true. I do not see how it changes the point.

Of course China will change. But even now, it is much more 'normal' country than, say, Iran or Syria or Zimbabwe.
Of course the problem with liberty is that you can't plan. And socialism depends on things going according to plan.
Actually, the more correct description is that socialism fails exactly because things are never going according to plan (lived there).

In freemarket economy, there is no need for central plan. That is the beauty of the system.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Greece is too much obviously. Spain as well. Italy - yep.
Well yeah, they are on the end of the scale. If you asked me, even Austria is to much of a socialist country for its own good. I am considered a rightwinger in Austria. I am for more market freedom, less social network, less government and less government spending than we have now. BUT, I am still butting heads with you every now and then ;)
Why? Because you see the world more as a pure black and white, I dont.
I see a grey world, a world that requires balance, not extremes.

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