Civil Rights Progress.

[ladajo]

Go to a church in Europe and you'll see as soon as people step out of the building, they light up. Tobacco is not stigmatized in Europe so people don't feel embarrassed or that smoking is any reflection on their spirituality. Not so in the States.

You don't hang out around churches in the Northeast then. As for Europe, the smoking culture is much stronger than the US these days (for various reasons that don't really matter). Your argument does not make any sense. The strong taboo in Europe is simply, "Don't smoke inside anymore". Given I have spent the last month in Europe, I am sure I am having more visibility to this than you.

[Skipjack]

In Austria there are still A LOT of smokers. many have quit in recent years due to regulations banning smoking in many public places and high taxes on cigarettes making smoking more expensive.
There are still way more than in the US. I would say that more than 50% of those older than 30 smoke.

[GIThruster]

Well this isn't recent. I first noticed the difference when visiting the Belgian Bible Institute outside Leuven in 1982. The students literally get released from class and pop outside for a smoke. Most Bible colleges and Seminaries in the US prohibit smoking by their students.

And as I grew up in the NorthEast and currently reside in NJ, I think I'm adequate to make the call about most churches. People don't light up in the church parking lot, just as I've said. Perhaps Catholics, but never Evangelicals.

The difference in smoking between Europe and America is huge. I would not have guessed as high as what Skippy is saying but I'll take his word for it. The point is however, there doesn't need to be anyone playing the role of bully, to create and enforce social stigmas, as is seen in the case of tobacco use here in the US.

[Skipjack]

I would not have guessed as high as what Skippy is saying but I'll take his word for it.

Just to give you an idea:
Literally every adult member of my family (except me) smokes. There are two MDs in my family and both smoke (one only occasionally though).
Now my family might be an extreme but I think that 50% hits it pretty well.

[GIThruster]

Yes well, you can always send them Blu starter kits for Christmas.

http://www.blucigs.com/

[Skipjack]

ohh, hehe, they tried all that and then went back to cigs. I think it is more a matter of will than anything else. I quit smoking without the help of any drugs, e.g. Didnt need the nicorette either.

[ladajo]

I agree with Skippy on the numbers. But I will also add that over the last years there do seem to be less than there used to be.

BTW, North East = New England. NJ is not North East.

Either way, I see plenty-o-folks stepping out of church for a ciggy, even during ceremonies.

In the scheme of life it is a point that does not matter. What matters is the cultural role of bullies. And they do not have to speak to have impact, only presence. That is part of the nature of playing the bully role.

[GIThruster]

Yes well the point is, there are plenty of social dynamics that authorize and stigmatize behaviors without use of a bully. This is simple group dynamics. When a cool role model like Sly Stalone uses his current success in the Rocky movies to tell young impressionable males "don't do drugs", that does not make Sly a bully, but it does make him effective. Progressives have been very artful in convincing popular culture to support their goals. Once you're in the camp of those who want others to think the way you do, and you believe you know best for others, you are firmly in the camp of social engineers who justify all manner of rhetoric to convince and even manipulate. You don't need or use bullies. You use heros when you can get them and school teachers when you can't.

[ladajo]

I would not equate your example to being a bully either. Bullies function via fear and intimidation, not as role models.