AGW Supporters always ignore this question

[choff]

I think it was U.N. stats. They said the real estate left behind in the ME was equal in area to 4 times the size of Israel and the economic value equal to $300 billion in todays value.
Since the Arab policies towards Israel and Jews are having the opposite than desired effect, perhaps they should try a 180 degree reversal. If you can't beat'em, join'em.

[MSimon]

And according to B'tselem, in January 2009 Israeli forces killed 252 children under 16 in Gaza.

Blew up an airplane they were on? Got a link?

And you know using children as human shields is not very nice. In fact those deaths are on the hands of the Palestinians.

[alexjrgreen]

Let me add that the Sephardic (Arab Jews) influence on Jewish culture is now so great that Ashkenazi (European Jews) pronunciation of Hebrew is now out of favor in Jewish culture. I'm getting used to it. Slowly.

Sephardi Jews come mostly from Spain and Portugal, and so are also European. Perhaps you meant Mizrahi Jews.

I realise that Israelis are confused about this, but then most Jews don't live there...

[alexjrgreen]

And according to B'tselem, in January 2009 Israeli forces killed 252 children under 16 in Gaza.

Blew up an airplane they were on? Got a link?

B’Tselem’s investigation of fatalities in Operation Cast Lead - bottom of page 3

[alexjrgreen]

And you know using children as human shields is not very nice. In fact those deaths are on the hands of the Palestinians.

I agree: Breaking the Silence: Israeli soldiers 'used human shields' in Gaza.

[MSimon]

And according to B'tselem, in January 2009 Israeli forces killed 252 children under 16 in Gaza.

Blew up an airplane they were on? Got a link?

B’Tselem’s investigation of fatalities in Operation Cast Lead - bottom of page 3

So the Israelis were not targeting orphanages. Just shooting at those firing rockets. Said rocket shooters doing their deed in civilian areas so they could get children killed for propaganda purposes.

Lovely.

[Jccarlton]

And you know using children as human shields is not very nice. In fact those deaths are on the hands of the Palestinians.

I agree: Breaking the Silence: Israeli soldiers 'used human shields' in Gaza.

Neither is using lies and liars to make your point. I've seen enough photographs from Gaza and heard so many lies from there that I have become massively suspicious of the UN, the NGO's and self hating Jews and anything they say. Hamas and the other Jihadi organizations make use of every tactic to perpetrate their crimes. Human shields, using children as scouts and runners, inciting children to attack IDF troops to get them to open fire, shooting random rockets at civilian targets and just about any other tactic forbidden by the Geneva conventions are stock in trade for Hamas. At this point, if Hamas wants to play that way, well as far as I am concerned the IDF should take the glove all the way off, refill the inert bombs, and blow the hell out of all those camps and missile factories without worrying so much about collateral damage. 252 killed. Talk to me how bad the IDF is when the body count approaches 20 or 30 thousand. Raise the body count and the war will be over real fast, for good.

[alexjrgreen]

So the Israelis were not targeting orphanages. Just shooting at those firing rockets. Said rocket shooters doing their deed in civilian areas so they could get children killed for propaganda purposes.

I don't accept this interpretation, because of the material circulated to soldiers in the IDF equating Palestinians with Philistines: IDF rabbinate publication during Gaza war: We will show no mercy on the cruel.

But if I did accept it, I would say that the IDF were unacceptably naive to comply.

[alexjrgreen]

Neither is using lies and liars to make your point. I've seen enough photographs from Gaza and heard so many lies from there that I have become massively suspicious of the UN, the NGO's and self hating Jews and anything they say.

I give you Israeli-collected fatality statistics and the testimony of IDF soldiers, and you call it lies, liars and self hating Jews...

Hamas and the other Jihadi organizations make use of every tactic to perpetrate their crimes. Human shields, using children as scouts and runners, inciting children to attack IDF troops to get them to open fire, shooting random rockets at civilian targets and just about any other tactic forbidden by the Geneva conventions are stock in trade for Hamas.

I unequivocally condemn the targetting of civilians. By either side.

At this point, if Hamas wants to play that way, well as far as I am concerned the IDF should take the glove all the way off, refill the inert bombs, and blow the hell out of all those camps and missile factories without worrying so much about collateral damage. 252 killed. Talk to me how bad the IDF is when the body count approaches 20 or 30 thousand. Raise the body count and the war will be over real fast, for good.

Listen to yourself.

[Jccarlton]

Neither is using lies and liars to make your point. I've seen enough photographs from Gaza and heard so many lies from there that I have become massively suspicious of the UN, the NGO's and self hating Jews and anything they say.

I give you Israeli-collected fatality statistics and the testimony of IDF soldiers, and you call it lies, liars and self hating Jews...
Because they are liars and self hating Jews. I've been in the middle of the Palestinian situation intensely for over ten years now(my parents are proPalestine advoctes) so I know what the lies look like. I've heard and seen them all before.

Hamas and the other Jihadi organizations make use of every tactic to perpetrate their crimes. Human shields, using children as scouts and runners, inciting children to attack IDF troops to get them to open fire, shooting random rockets at civilian targets and just about any other tactic forbidden by the Geneva conventions are stock in trade for Hamas.

I unequivocally condemn the targetting of civilians. By either side.
The problem is that Hama doesn't care about civilians and indeed uses them to shield their activities. Which makes it impossible to target Hamas without targeting civilans. Also Hamas prefers to target civilians rather than engaging the IDF which can shoot back.

At this point, if Hamas wants to play that way, well as far as I am concerned the IDF should take the glove all the way off, refill the inert bombs, and blow the hell out of all those camps and missile factories without worrying so much about collateral damage. 252 killed. Talk to me how bad the IDF is when the body count approaches 20 or 30 thousand. Raise the body count and the war will be over real fast, for good.

Listen to yourself.

You know for most of my life I've heard about the "peace process," but never about actually creating peace. Hamas is the government that the Gazan's wanted. Hamas does not want peace. If Hamas wanted peace ther would be peace. But Hamas' entire reason for existance is war. They will never want peace. Ergo for peace to happen Hamas must be destroyed. The same goes for any of the Jihadi organizations. In order for these organizations to be destroyed everything they have and are must be completely removed. Including their support from the people. which means you are gong to have to inflict massive casualties with massive collateral damage. In order for Hamas to be exterminated Gaza itself will have to be brought to ruin. You are going to have to inflict enough damage that the people of Gaza will be absolutely convinced that living without the Jihadis is much better than living with them. That's the way the game is played and yes it's very ugly. Religious wars always are. In the long run the casualties will be less than the slow bleed that's going on now. Do it once, do it for good.

[Josh Cryer]

Somewhere else I read that at least half the Jews now living in Israel are descended from Jews living in ME countries.

Yes, the Palestinian exodus (which resulted in most Palestinians moving to Jordon) was equaled by the Jewish exodus, Jews in the rest of the world being maligned and rejected from their societies going to Isreal.

This is often overlooked with the "plight" of the Palestinians (who are not allowed citizenship in any Arab League countries). Sometimes it is admittedly ignorance of the situation.

[MSimon]

Somewhere else I read that at least half the Jews now living in Israel are descended from Jews living in ME countries.

Yes, the Palestinian exodus (which resulted in most Palestinians moving to Jordon) was equaled by the Jewish exodus, Jews in the rest of the world being maligned and rejected from their societies going to Isreal.

This is often overlooked with the "plight" of the Palestinians (who are not allowed citizenship in any Arab League countries). Sometimes it is admittedly ignorance of the situation.

The Palis are the most despised people in the Arab world? Why? They often (as in always) bite the hand that feeds them.

Look into Jordan and Black September if you want to compare how the Israelis treat Palis vs Arab methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

And the Pali hatred of Jews did not start in '67 or even 1948. It goes back much farther. And the result was was 2 Jew Killing (SS) Divisions in WW2. And why were the Balkan Moslems assigned that task? They were useless against regular troops.



http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandat ... _mufti.php

The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years.

William Ziff, in his book "The Rape of Palestine," summarizes:

* Implicated in the [1920] disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life. [P. 22]

Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.

BTW Yasser Arafat called the Mufti "uncle". Whether it was an honorific or he was actually related is disputed. They did spend time together.

[seedload]

Why did ppm drop in the 80s? Recession?

Lowering temperatures cause a slow down of CO2 growth because of ocean CO2 uptake. Since temperatures were going down leading up to the 80's, CO2 acceleration was going down. What you see is the end of this and the start of the renued acceleration of CO2 (ocean outgassing). Since it is heavily smoothed, you see the bottom of this trend change continuing into the 80's. It really ended just prior.

Changes in uptake and outgassing due to temperature are a small fraction of overall CO2 growth, but it shows in acceleration because the overall trend in acceleration is smaller than the dips/rises in acceleration caused by the changes in the ocean cycle.

The picture below is an example of this correlation between temperature velocity and co2 acceleration taken from some satellite data.

[MSimon]

Oh and MSimon, "12 MW wind turbines" don't exist.

So true.

I think I mentioned that more research should be going into making turbines larger. Rather than spending 1,000 times as much on turbines that are a dead loss to the economy.

And superconducting generators are not exotic. They are just unusual.

Do you remember the 35 MW SC motor thread?

I believe American Superconductor is doing work on such generators.

[Josh Cryer]

I'm torn. I want to talk about politics and I want to talk about CO2 and I want to talk about technology. But I am sick and sleepy.


Palis are also being manipulated by interests in the Arab world. Why can't they have citizenship? The US gives free citizenship to Cuban people. Wouldn't Palestine be seen as a Cuba-esque situation, whereby the Arab world sees them as persecuted (as we consider Cubans), and give them a chance to get out of dodge? It's solely designed to keep them in.


seedload, thanks for answering my question, I thought it went overlooked.


And wind turbines are quite economical and competitive post 2.5 MW. They come around the same cost as coal. Texas is building them like crazy because the oil derricks have dried up and they like free money (leasing parcels of land for the turbines to rest on).