Democrats Start Positioning Themselves For Prohibition End

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Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Stubby wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
Stubby wrote:
Yep
great historic document. lots of references to god. It created your nation. But has nothing to do with your government. It was good enough to create your nation but not create the government.

The FF returned to the Continental Congress after winning independence to create another document to create your government. A document with no direct references to gods? They had plenty of opportunity to include religious language. Maybe they got into the sacramental wine and just plumb forgot!
So let me ask you this. If they had included overtly religious language in the document they used to create our government, would you then admit that such a government favored the Christian religion?


Let me rephrase that. If the Governing Document had contained explicitly religious language, would you admit you are wrong?
Thank you for admitting that it doesn't contain any.

How about you just answer the question which was asked? If it did, would you admit you are wrong?
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Stubby wrote:So in a sense it was deliberate but pissing people off was only one of the possible outcomes. . .

Ask yourselves:
Why does it piss you off?
Would 'Allah is the one true god!" be as offensive?
I don't get annoyed when people of various faiths make proclamations about their faith. That's their right. This is not however what you're doing with your sig. What you're doing, is saying everyone but the atheist is wrong. There's a huge difference between someone saying what they believe is right, and what everyone else believes is wrong.

Maybe its because you can't tell the difference that you're so caustic? I'm surprised because it never occurred to me you might be a moron rather than deliberately offensive.

In any case, the point is the same: you are the very last person to lecture others on divisiveness. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Stubby
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Stubby »

GIThruster wrote:
Stubby wrote:So in a sense it was deliberate but pissing people off was only one of the possible outcomes. . .

Ask yourselves:
Why does it piss you off?
Would 'Allah is the one true god!" be as offensive?
I don't get annoyed when people of various faiths make proclamations about their faith. That's their right. This is not however what you're doing with your sig. What you're doing, is saying everyone but the atheist is wrong. There's a huge difference between someone saying what they believe is right, and what everyone else believes is wrong.

Maybe its because you can't tell the difference that you're so caustic? I'm surprised because it never occurred to me you might be a moron rather than deliberately offensive.

In any case, the point is the same: you are the very last person to lecture others on divisiveness. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
So you say
I don't get annoyed when people of various faiths make proclamations about their faith.


So in theory muslims saying 'allah is the One True God' doesn't annoy you even though they are implying all the gods of all the other faiths are false.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Stubby
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Stubby »

Diogenes wrote:
Stubby wrote:
Diogenes wrote: So let me ask you this. If they had included overtly religious language in the document they used to create our government, would you then admit that such a government favored the Christian religion?


Let me rephrase that. If the Governing Document had contained explicitly religious language, would you admit you are wrong?
Thank you for admitting that it doesn't contain any.

How about you just answer the question which was asked? If it did, would you admit you are wrong?
Interesting choice of language digot. Not playing word games are you?
Governing Document indeed. I sense an attempted AHA moment from you in the near future.

In general principle on any given subject, I look at the available evidence before making any judgement. If new evidence shows up, it is analyzed to see if is applicable.

There is no overtly religious language in your Constitution (or are you calling it a Governing Document now?).
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Stubby
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Stubby »

I want to thank digot for the wnd website. As a source for information typical of him, it is religious and conservative. And yet you can find diamonds on the ruff.

A fundamentalist who gets it:
For those who will immediately go tl|dr, read the last paragraph.
I was prompted to write and comment after reading the story on the New Jersey football coach that resigned because he was prohibited from leading his team in pre-game prayers.

Let me start by saying I am an evangelical Christian and have pretty hard-core beliefs about the rights of individuals, particularly students, to express their faith, to include religious themes in their school work, to perform Christian-themed music and dramas during school talent events, etc. If a school administrator had ever tried to stop one of my kids from carrying a Bible, participating in voluntary prayer, or openly discussing their faith with another student, I would have sued him back in to the Stone Age.

You might be surprised then to learn that I am adamantly opposed to teachers and other school officials leading students in prayer or the conduct of prayer rituals, even by students, at officially sanctioned events. Why would I take a position that is seemingly so at odds with my core beliefs?

Throughout the vast majority of the United States, most religious practices and beliefs are rooted in a traditional Judeo-Christian belief system. As such, prayers conducted before a football game or at a graduation ceremony, even if so bland and non-proselytizing as to be meaningless, are generally offered in the context of the traditional Jehovah God of the Old and New Testament. However, that is not the case in all corners of our nation.

I had the privilege of serving our nation’s Air Force while assigned to Hickam Air Force Base on the beautiful island of Oahu in the beautiful state of Hawaii. Because of the arrangement of military housing in that location, my family and I actually lived not at Hickam near the Honolulu metropolitan area, but at Wheeler Air Force Base in the central part of the island just out side of the small pineapple-farming town of Wahiawa. In Wahiawa we found a small Baptist church that met our family’s needs. However, Christians and others from various Judeo-Christian traditions were in the very distinct minority in this little village that was populated predominantly by people of Japanese and Chinese ancestry. Rather than a church on every corner, as is common in the continental 48 states, Wahiawa had a Shinto or Buddhist shrine on every corner.

Because we worked in the youth department of our church and taught teenage Sunday School classes, we were anxious to be involved in the lives of the students we worked with. So we were quite excited to be able to attend our first football game at Wahiawa High School. Upon our arrival at the stadium it seemed like so many other high school athletic events we had been to in many other places. The teams were warming up, the band was gathering, the ROTC was preparing to raise the colors – a pretty typical fall ritual.

Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest, but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.

We were frozen in shock and incredulity! What to do? To continue to stand and observe this prayer would represent a betrayal of our own faith and imply the honoring of a pagan deity that was anathema to our beliefs. To sit would be an act of extreme rudeness and disrespect in the eyes of our Japanese hosts and neighbors, who value above all other things deference and respect in their social interactions. I am sorry to say that in the confusion of the moment we chose the easier path and elected to continue to stand in silence so as not to create a scene or ill will among those who were seated nearby.

As I thought through the incident over the next few days I supposed that the duty of offering the pre-game prayer rotated through the local clergy and we just happened to arrive on the night that the responsibility fell to the Buddhist priest. However, after inquiring I learned that due to the predominance of Buddhist and Shinto adherents in this town, it was the normal practice to have a member of one these faiths offer the pre-game prayer, and Christian clergy were never included. Needless to say that was our first and last football game. Although many of the students we worked with continued to invite us to the games, we were forced to decline. We knew that if we were to attend again we would be forced to abstain from the pre-game activity. And not wanting to offend our Asiatic neighbors and colleagues, we simply refrained from attending.

The point is this. I am a professional, educated and responsible man who is strong in his faith and is quite comfortable debating the social and political issues of the day. Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision and could not act decisively to defend and proclaim my own beliefs. I felt instantly ostracized and viewed myself as a foreigner in my own land.

We often advocate the practice of Judeo-Christian rituals in America’s public schools by hiding behind the excuse that they are voluntary and any student who doesn’t wish to participate can simply remained seated and silent. Oh that this were true. But if I, as a mature adult, would be so confounded and uncomfortable when faced with the decision of observing and standing on my own religious principals or run the risk of offending the majority crowd, I can only imagine what thoughts and confusion must run through the head of the typical child or teenager, for whom peer acceptance is one of the highest ideals.

I would say in love to my Christian brothers and sisters, before you yearn for the imposition of prayer and similar rituals in your public schools, you might consider attending a football game at Wahiawa High School. Because unless you’re ready to endure the unwilling exposure of yourself and your children to those beliefs and practices that your own faith forswears, you have no right to insist that others sit in silence and complicity while you do the same to them. I, for one, slept better at night knowing that because Judeo-Christian prayers were not being offered at my children’s schools, I didn’t have to worry about them being confronted with Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan, Satanic or any other prayer ritual I might find offensive.

[bold for emphasis]

Gary Christenot
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Stubby wrote:
Interesting choice of language digot. Not playing word games are you?
Governing Document indeed. I sense an attempted AHA moment from you in the near future.

Yeah, you caught me. It IS a trap, and you sensed it. It's difficult to phrase it in such a way so as to prevent it from smelling like a trap, but I did the best I could.



Stubby wrote: In general principle on any given subject, I look at the available evidence before making any judgement. If new evidence shows up, it is analyzed to see if is applicable.

There is no overtly religious language in your Constitution (or are you calling it a Governing Document now?).

I have a hidden card. Do you think you can figure out what it is? You are sniffing in the right direction, i'll give you that.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Stubby wrote:I want to thank digot for the wnd website. As a source for information typical of him, it is religious and conservative. And yet you can find diamonds on the ruff.

A fundamentalist who gets it:
For those who will immediately go tl|dr, read the last paragraph.

His argument boils down to "it's not fair" and "how would you like them to do it to you?"


Both points are irrelevant. It is what it is, not what we wish it to be. That it is unfair is irrelevant. Slavery was unfair, but it was an accepted part of constitutional law at one time. (overturned by the 13th amendment.) The salient point is that under the US Constitution, something that is, continues until it is explicitly changed.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Stubby
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Stubby »

If it had been you and your family at that football game, what would you have done or felt? Very curious.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Stubby wrote:If it had been you and your family at that football game, what would you have done or felt? Very curious.

My philosophy is "When in Rome you do as the Romans do." It bothers me not a whit if a group of people in a community prefer Buddhist or Shinto prayers. In the United States, different states maintained official state religions into the 1830s.


I have long thought it odd that Americans have often felt the need to apply their standards to other people. An example which I have always thought peculiar is the notion that Arab Muslims ought to be held to Western/American notion of what is right and wrong, and put away their own historical customs in favor of ours.


This is just culture bias in my opinion.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Stubby
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Stubby »

So you would pray to Buddha or Allah in a such a situation.?
How about everyone else here? Could you pray to a 'pagan' god?
Would you want to have your family exposed to 'pagan' rituals and prayers?
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Stubby wrote:So you would pray to Buddha or Allah in a such a situation.?
How about everyone else here? Could you pray to a 'pagan' god?
Would you want to have your family exposed to 'pagan' rituals and prayers?
Can I have a Saturnalia? Assuming I can get the First Mate's permission.

Will Shamanism be allowed?

http://www.alchemy-works.com/
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I'm particularly fond of the Muslim definition of rape. If a woman has no protector she is free game. And if a man or a bunch of them have sex with her against her wishes it is her fault.

The idea that a woman is a person in her own right is a rather peculiar and recent Western invention.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Stubby wrote:So you would pray to Buddha or Allah in a such a situation.?
How about everyone else here? Could you pray to a 'pagan' god?
Would you want to have your family exposed to 'pagan' rituals and prayers?

I can stand there quietly and let everyone else do it. There is no obligation for me to participate actively, but if it comes to that, I wouldn't much care one way or the other.


I can mouth meaningless (to me) phrases just as well as the next person. It offends my agnostic sensibilities not at all.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:I'm particularly fond of the Muslim definition of rape. If a woman has no protector she is free game. And if a man or a bunch of them have sex with her against her wishes it is her fault.

The idea that a woman is a person in her own right is a rather peculiar and recent Western invention.

And they still practice slavery. Good Democrats, those.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Stubby
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Stubby »

Diogenes wrote:
Stubby wrote:So you would pray to Buddha or Allah in a such a situation.?
How about everyone else here? Could you pray to a 'pagan' god?
Would you want to have your family exposed to 'pagan' rituals and prayers?

I can stand there quietly and let everyone else do it. There is no obligation for me to participate actively, but if it comes to that, I wouldn't much care one way or the other.


I can mouth meaningless (to me) phrases just as well as the next person. It offends my agnostic sensibilities not at all.
Great. What about your pro-theist sensibilities, what with you being an "old testament type of guy" (hopefully i got the quote right else GiT will be incensed). The old testament is pretty explicit and graphic as to what happens to heretics, pagans and such.

The real problem is that most evangelicals like Mr. Christenot would not. They would be incensed to hear 'pagan' prayers. And most of them are not as rational as Mr. Christenot.

He gets it.
Last edited by Stubby on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

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