US Bashing

[seedload]

I think anyone who questions how we fight our war should first remember how we fought their war:

They can go here in Belgium:



Or here in England:



Or here in Luxembourg:



Or here North Africa:



Or here in Italy:



Or visit here in the Netherlands:



Or here in France:



... and when they are done, they should remember this:



... and maybe they will realize that they shouldn't be questioning our war, but rather, they should question why they aren't at OUR side!

[Mike Holmes]

Will I get labeled as unpatriotic if I say that the above propaganda won't convince anyone to stop bashing the US? If the Europeans know their history, they know that we didn't enter WWII until there was an eminent threat to us in the form of an attack on US soil. We weren't fighting their war, we were fighting for our own survival.

As for "our war" you mean the war on Terror (as the towers would indicate)? Which the western world is wholeheartedly supporting us in? Since, you know, they've been attacked too in places like London and Madrid.

Or do you mean the war in Iraq? Try as you might to conflate the two, it wasn't even sold that way originally. It was sold as a dictator with WMD threat. Later the Bush administration tried to link the two as part of the same grand plan, but it's hard to see just how putting our troops in Iraq strengthens the fight against the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Yes, Al Queda attacked us in Iraq. Is it surprising that they would attack us there when given the opportunity to do so in a warzone with an insurgency going on? Does that mean that they are based there? No, they arrived after we did. They're already quite unwelcome there by the Iraqis, and will leave once they can't attack us there any more (as they have no other interest there at all).

If you want to sell the American national brand, shouting "You owe us!" is unlikely to do the trick.

Mike

[MSimon]

Will I get labeled as unpatriotic if I say that the above propaganda won't convince anyone to stop bashing the US? If the Europeans know their history, they know that we didn't enter WWII until there was an eminent threat to us in the form of an attack on US soil. We weren't fighting their war, we were fighting for our own survival.

So almost true. And yet we are now trying to head off trouble (you can question the tactics) and the Euros don't like that either.

But hating America (the provincials) is not some recent European sport. It goes back to well before 1776.

BTW the Euros don't know their history. Neither do most Americans. We were de facto at war with the German Navy from the Summer of 1941 on. See The Reuben James.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_(DD-245)

[MSimon]

We are never going to get significant military help from any of the Euros save Britain.

So it is really pointless to care what they think.

In any case the real war is a culture war. And the wrong side is winning in Europe. They are back to hating Jews and loving Arabs.

OTOH America is winning the culture war in Iraq. A majority of Iraqis think that the American invasion was a good thing overall.

Simon

[seedload]

Will I get labeled as unpatriotic if I say that the above propaganda won't convince anyone to stop bashing the US? If the Europeans know their history, they know that we didn't enter WWII until there was an eminent threat to us in the form of an attack on US soil. We weren't fighting their war, we were fighting for our own survival.

As for "our war" you mean the war on Terror (as the towers would indicate)? Which the western world is wholeheartedly supporting us in? Since, you know, they've been attacked too in places like London and Madrid.

Or do you mean the war in Iraq? Try as you might to conflate the two, it wasn't even sold that way originally. It was sold as a dictator with WMD threat. Later the Bush administration tried to link the two as part of the same grand plan, but it's hard to see just how putting our troops in Iraq strengthens the fight against the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Yes, Al Queda attacked us in Iraq. Is it surprising that they would attack us there when given the opportunity to do so in a warzone with an insurgency going on? Does that mean that they are based there? No, they arrived after we did. They're already quite unwelcome there by the Iraqis, and will leave once they can't attack us there any more (as they have no other interest there at all).

If you want to sell the American national brand, shouting "You owe us!" is unlikely to do the trick.

Mike

It should be noted that WWI was included in my propoganda.

We were heavily involved in WWII well before we were attacked. I would venture to say that had we not been HEAVILY involved in WWII we probably wouldn't have been attacked. Or do our supplies, weapons, food, and the lives of those lost at sea not count? The body count didn't start with Pearl Harbor.

I am only shouting "You owe us" because it is true. We are owed, at the very least, the benefit of the doubt.

But, considering that a fair percentage of world actually believes that we attacked ourselves on 911, I suspect you are right that shouting that we have been there for them isn't going to change anyone's mind.

And, in the future, when we are called upon to help, we will do so regardless.

[seedload]

We are never going to get significant military help from any of the Euros save Britain.

So it is really pointless to care what they think.

I agree completely. However, my original post was really meant to express concern, not over what everyone else thinks of us, but over our own growing anti-american sentiment. American's who think that our system is wrong and Euro Socialism is right. American's who believe we are lagging and backwards. American leaders longingly refer to specific accomplishments of China, France and the Netherlands as general condemnations of our system. American media who puff up others and tear us down. I am not worried about without. I am worried about within.

In any case the real war is a culture war. And the wrong side is winning in Europe. They are back to hating Jews and loving Arabs.

It's funny, the only people we seem to hate any more in America are the successful.

OTOH America is winning the culture war in Iraq. A majority of Iraqis think that the American invasion was a good thing overall.

Simon

Bush and administration really did not plan or execute well. It is really a shame. I think there would be a different perception if giant mistakes had not been made.

[alexjrgreen]

BTW the Euros don't know their history.

We have so much more of it to remember

[alexjrgreen]

I am only shouting "You owe us" because it is true. We are owed, at the very least, the benefit of the doubt.

Everybody takes casualties in war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

I know very few people in Europe who aren't grateful for America's logistic and military help in two World Wars, and for the Marshall Plan which put Europe's economy back together.

We've given you the benefit of the doubt time and time again, dodgy dictator after dodgy dictator.

Just please don't ask us to give America the benefit of the doubt when you lie in the UN about WMDs and torture your prisoners...

[TallDave]

If the Europeans know their history, they know that we didn't enter WWII until there was an eminent threat to us in the form of an attack on US soil.

Well, we were sending massive aid to Britain and (rather stupidly) to Stalinist Russia even before Pearl Harbor. And of course Americans have been helping defend S Korea, Taiwan, Israel etc in the absence of any direct threat to ourselves.

Europe was probably screwed without us. There's a book out recently arguing Stalin had made extensive preparations to invade Western Europe and viewed the Nazis as the expendable spearhead of the Communist revolution, but was pre-empted when the Germans belatedly learned of their plans and in a panic launched their own offensive with the goal of quickly crippling them before winter, which had great initial success due to the fact the Soviets were poised for an offensive war and poorly positioned for defensive fighting.

Just please don't ask us to give America the benefit of the doubt when you lie in the UN about WMDs and torture your prisoners...

This is the kind of ignorant slander that makes us wonder why the hell we keep saving the rest of the world from itself.

[Skipjack]

Well torturing your prisoners... All I say is Guatanamo bay... Not much better than what Saddam did, just maybe a bit on a smaller scale...
I so hope that place will go away, it is a disgrace to western society.

Oh and on the 9/11 thingy: The war in Iraq HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, NOTHING! Besides certain politicians making sure both are getting mentioned in one breath all the time.

[TallDave]

All I say is Guatanamo bay... Not much better than what Saddam did, just maybe a bit on a smaller scale...

Saddam burned people's faces off with acid, raped their children in front of them, lopped off fingers and noses and tongues... I could go on. This was all done purely for the purpose of keeping Saddam in power. The fact people equate this with 3 senior AQ terrorists undergoing a few minutes of having water dripped on their faces in order to defuse plots to kill innocent civilians shows how degraded the process of reason in political thought has become.

The war in Iraq HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, NOTHING!

Except that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, and Iraq was one of the world's foremost terror-sponsoring states.

The weird refrain that the war on terror has nothing to do with Iraq is among the more bizarre leftist mantras. This is like arguing baking has nothing do with Sara Lee because Duncan Hines makes cakes too.

[Skipjack]

Something else that people tend to forget:
The US was quietly supporting Hitler for a while (at the beginning of the war). Ford was building trucks for the German army and wasnt there some scandal about trade secrets for making synthetic rubber that somehow found its way to Germany?

[gblaze42]

All I say is Guatanamo bay... Not much better than what Saddam did, just maybe a bit on a smaller scale...

Saddam burned people's faces off with acid, raped their children in front of them, lopped off fingers and noses and tongues... I could go on. The fact people equate this with 3 senior AQ terrorists undergoing a few minuntes of having water dripped on their faces in order to defuse plots to kill innocent civilians shows how degraded the process of reason in political thought has become.

Throw in that Al-Qaeda would actually cook the children and feed them to the parents as a form of torture, I think Guantanamo wasn't very big at all.

If you want to read an un-biased excellent reporting of what is going on in Iraq, Take a look here;

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/bless- ... ildren.htm

As a warning, it's pretty graphic.

[Skipjack]

Lybia, Syria, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Palestinia. They all do much more to support terrorism against Israel and the US than Iraq ever did.In fact Osama Bin Laden is a member of the leading Saudi family.... Makes you think...
Al Quaida was not in Iraq until the US caused anarchy there.
No, the war in Iraq had other reasons, plenty of those, but 9/11 was not one of them.
Also there are more than 3 people in Guatanamo Bay and torture is torture and that is nothing that should exist in the 21st century.

[TallDave]

Or do you mean the war in Iraq? Try as you might to conflate the two, it wasn't even sold that way originally.

Yes, it was. The arguments for promotion of democracy and links to terror were being made long before 9/11, were cited by Clinton when he bombed the country, and were prominent in the 2002 AUMF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

And of course we never would have gone into Iraq in the first place except that the world insisted we enforce a Pax Americana by kicking Saddam out of Kuwait after he'd seized their country.

If you want to sell the American national brand, shouting "You owe us!" is unlikely to do the trick.

I don't think we want to "sell the national brand" so much as we'd just like people to look at the facts rather than reflexively condemn us.