Was Trayvon high?

[williatw]

I also want to wait to learn more details but it seems extremely unlikely to me that Zimmerman will be found guilty. Lets take a worst case scenario.

Suppose that Zimmerman was a racist, and angry, and looking for trouble. (Hard to believe since he was mixed race himself and called the police--not what people do who are looking for trouble.) Lets suppose too that the doctored audio tape really does have Zimmerman using a racial epithet--(though I listened to it 5 times and never heard what CNN wanted me to hear.) Lets suppose Zimmerman chased down a younger, stronger, bigger man, antagonized him and that man started swinging on him.

What we still know is that Zimmerman had no abrasions on his knuckles and no witnesses saw him strike Martin. The witnesses did however see Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him fiercely. We know Zimmerman was quite beat up and with the abrasions on the back of his head, likely in mortal danger of having his head bashed in.

Under circumstances like that, no matter if Zimmerman could have acted so as to avoid the encounter, once his life is threatened he is entitled to defend himself. In FL, he's entitled to use lethal force to defend himself.

I see almost no possibility that Zimmerman will be found culpable. Were this to happen, there would be almost no chance of a legal defense or "righteous shooting" under any circumstances in the future. And of course this is what the news media wanted when the forced the issue. They're trying to manipulate popular culture and the legal system through propaganda. It's the news media that should be brought up on charges, though I can't think of a single law they've broken. There must be some sort of law against inciting violence or some such, but it would be different for each state.

The prosecutor Angela Corey will probably go with that Zimmerman was the "aggressor" by profiling Martin because he was black "pursuing" and cornering him and then the physical confrontation happened. "Who knows" who threw the 1st punch doesn't matter Zimm is the aggressor, at fault for having caused the situation and therefore can't claim self-defense. Betting the judge won't dismiss, to the jury. If I had to guess I would say the verdict will be a hung jury. Jury convinced Zimmerman "at fault" for causing the situation but unable to get a unanimous verdict because the prosecutor over charged, 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter. Then Holder(if he is still in office) will go with hate crime charges. This particular prosecutor managed to get a guilty verdict against a black woman for shooting a warning shot at a serial abusive ex-spouse who had her trapped in her own home. She argued that although Florida has a stand your ground law, not requiring her to retreat, the fact she didn’t showed she wasn’t in fear of her life when she shot the warning shot. Judge and jury believed that argument she was found guilty sentenced to 20 yrs.
http://thegrio.com/2012/05/15/angela-co ... ey-4x3-jpg

The letter of the law not withstanding, it is what a judge/jury actually decides in court that matters.

[ScottL]

Scott,
So, you know Trayvon was being threatened with the gun first, or did you make that up? I suppose one could fantasize anything. Forensics I have heard back up the story that Zimmerman was on the ground being beat with Martin's bloody knuckles, Zimmerman having never laid a hand on Martin. I doubt a jury will convict Zimmerman based on your fantasies, but who knows?
Best regards

You have no forensics champ. The documents have been sealed. The only facts available are:

1. Trayvon went to a convenience store, purchased some items and started heading back in the direction of his home. per Clerk's testimony and location of the death (public knowledge)

2. 911 Dispatch requested that Zimmerman not pursue the teen. (public knowledge, 911 call)

3. Zimmerman approached Trayvon. Zimmerman's brief statement, Trayvon's GF's testimony of a phone call.

4. A struggle ensued and Zimmerman fired his gun reportedly in self-defense. Witness testimony.

So where are you getting your information, because I've openly said I'm speculating. I still put the responsibility of the situation on Mr. Zimmerman after failing to follow recommendations by 911 dispatch (how dumb can you be?) Sounds like Mr. Zimmerman thought himself something of a badass to approach a 6'3" individual.

[mvanwink5]

Whatever you say, Scott.
Best regards

[MSimon]

Scott,
So, you know Trayvon was being threatened with the gun first, or did you make that up? I suppose one could fantasize anything. Forensics I have heard back up the story that Zimmerman was on the ground being beat with Martin's bloody knuckles, Zimmerman having never laid a hand on Martin. I doubt a jury will convict Zimmerman based on your fantasies, but who knows?
Best regards

You have no forensics champ. The documents have been sealed. The only facts available are:

1. Trayvon went to a convenience store, purchased some items and started heading back in the direction of his home. per Clerk's testimony and location of the death (public knowledge)

2. 911 Dispatch requested that Zimmerman not pursue the teen. (public knowledge, 911 call)

3. Zimmerman approached Trayvon. Zimmerman's brief statement, Trayvon's GF's testimony of a phone call.

4. A struggle ensued and Zimmerman fired his gun reportedly in self-defense. Witness testimony.

So where are you getting your information, because I've openly said I'm speculating. I still put the responsibility of the situation on Mr. Zimmerman after failing to follow recommendations by 911 dispatch (how dumb can you be?) Sounds like Mr. Zimmerman thought himself something of a badass to approach a 6'3" individual.

Can you explain how after Zimmerman lost Martin, Martin didn't get home? He had enough time.

Tray either:

1. Doubled back.
2. Lay in wait.

Now explain again who is the aggressor?

But even that doesn't matter.

Once Zim is pinned to the ground (further retreat is impossible) he has the right to defend himself no matter who the aggressor was.

======

I do note one very unusual aspect of the case. A. Corey has a large and impressive tattoo on her forehead clearly visible in public. The lettering - done by one of the best artists of the day - says in fiery letters:

NIFONG

[ScottL]

Scott,
So, you know Trayvon was being threatened with the gun first, or did you make that up? I suppose one could fantasize anything. Forensics I have heard back up the story that Zimmerman was on the ground being beat with Martin's bloody knuckles, Zimmerman having never laid a hand on Martin. I doubt a jury will convict Zimmerman based on your fantasies, but who knows?
Best regards

You have no forensics champ. The documents have been sealed. The only facts available are:

1. Trayvon went to a convenience store, purchased some items and started heading back in the direction of his home. per Clerk's testimony and location of the death (public knowledge)

2. 911 Dispatch requested that Zimmerman not pursue the teen. (public knowledge, 911 call)

3. Zimmerman approached Trayvon. Zimmerman's brief statement, Trayvon's GF's testimony of a phone call.

4. A struggle ensued and Zimmerman fired his gun reportedly in self-defense. Witness testimony.

So where are you getting your information, because I've openly said I'm speculating. I still put the responsibility of the situation on Mr. Zimmerman after failing to follow recommendations by 911 dispatch (how dumb can you be?) Sounds like Mr. Zimmerman thought himself something of a badass to approach a 6'3" individual.

Can you explain how after Zimmerman lost Martin, Martin didn't get home? He had enough time.

Tray either:

1. Doubled back.
2. Lay in wait.

Now explain again who is the aggressor?

But even that doesn't matter.

Once Zim is pinned to the ground (further retreat is impossible) he has the right to defend himself no matter who the aggressor was.

======

I do note one very unusual aspect of the case. A. Corey has a large and impressive tattoo on her forehead clearly visible in public. The lettering - done by one of the best artists of the day - says in fiery letters:

NIFONG

Can you point me to his testimony where he says he lost Martin and then was attacked by him as he "lay in waiting" as you put it?

[Diogenes]

Diogenes, nice mix up of issues.

No dude, i'm unmixing up the issues. The topic as I stated was about how people who get high sometimes do things which harm other people. I had no desire to get into a discussion about the particulars of the Zimmerman case. I only wanted people to note that there is some evidence indicating that Trayvon was a habitual drug user. This subsequent story about the zombie "face eater" is exactly alike in so far as it is another example of someone getting high and hurting other people.

Using your arguments, guns are the cause of crime.

If carrying a gun causes someone to act like an ass (a condition that occurs sometimes, but usually not with trained licensees.) then you might have a point. But guns do not ordinarily tamper with the fundamental workings of the human brain. (For most people.)

Look, people do things. People act. guns don't act. Drugs don't act. People take drugs or use guns. The issue is responsibility. Assigning responsibility to inanimate things is nonsense. If the cannibal took the drugs then he is responsible.

Yes, the issue is responsibility. People need to be held responsible for the damage caused by the distribution and use of illegal products intended to alter consciousness.

If someone slipped him the drugs, then that other person is responsible, assuming.... assuming one can show cause and effect of the drugs and the cannibalistic behavior.
Best regards

Seems like a contradiction. The person who slipped someone drugs is responsible for what happens, unless that person is themselves?????

Anyway, here's a quote regarding the face eating man.

"We've had at least two incidents in the past couple of months with people claiming they took a new form of LSD and complained of feeling a burning sensation that forced them to take their clothes off and led them to become very violent," he said.


He also said the drug could be a synthetic stimulant known as bath salts, which the Drug Enforcement Administration has linked to side effects ranging from an impaired perception of reality to agitation and delusional behavior.

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/26 ... police-say

[Diogenes]

I guess Scott missed the videos where Trayvon was refereeing UFC type matches between some of his fight club friends. Apparently Trayvon felt that he was something of a badass.

An eyewitness said they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman punching him in the face and beating his head against the concrete. Yeah, Zimmerman shouldn't have picked on the helpless little kid.

Come on, at least read the report and Zimmerman's testimony prior to arrest. He's repeatedly said he followed the teen because he thoughthe was part of a group that had recently robbed the area, however; Trayvon was completely new to the area, that was the whole reason he was there. He had a disciplinary problem and got sent off to his father in another city.

I'm sorry but if Trayvon were a Straight A student and white, who had this happen to him, you wouldn't even bring it up.

You could just save us all a lot of time and say that you think we're wrong because you think we're "racists." Whatever.

[ScottL]

I guess Scott missed the videos where Trayvon was refereeing UFC type matches between some of his fight club friends. Apparently Trayvon felt that he was something of a badass.

An eyewitness said they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman punching him in the face and beating his head against the concrete. Yeah, Zimmerman shouldn't have picked on the helpless little kid.

Come on, at least read the report and Zimmerman's testimony prior to arrest. He's repeatedly said he followed the teen because he thoughthe was part of a group that had recently robbed the area, however; Trayvon was completely new to the area, that was the whole reason he was there. He had a disciplinary problem and got sent off to his father in another city.

I'm sorry but if Trayvon were a Straight A student and white, who had this happen to him, you wouldn't even bring it up.

You could just save us all a lot of time and say that you think we're wrong because you think we're "racists." Whatever.

That was a quick jump to conclusion seeing as I haven't raised the race card in my speculation. It'd also be difficult since both individuals are minorities (Latino vs African-American). My personal opinion is that you're all speculating on the case in a favorable way to what you want to believe. This goes for both sides, but at least I said I was speculating, not stating lies as facts. As for you Diogenes, I just don't like you, plain and simple.

[MSimon]

Can you point me to his testimony where he says he lost Martin and then was attacked by him as he "lay in waiting" as you put it?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/ ... ubled-back

I don't agree with all the details but the general timeline is correct. Martin had between a minute and two minutes to cover 90 yards to get home. Somehow George lost him but Tray couldn't get home.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/ ... -testimony

And DD? Her testimony is not admissible. She waited what? Two weeks? Three weeks? To tell her story - not to the police but to a lawyer for the Martins. One wonders why she didn't call the police when her boyfriend stopped responding after intimating he might be getting in a fight.

The purpose of DD is the court of public opinion.

If she does appear then I believe further inspection will show A. Corey has a similar tattoo on her arze.

[mvanwink5]

Diogenes,

Seems like a contradiction. The person who slipped someone drugs is responsible for what happens, unless that person is themselves?????

If the person 'A' knowingly took the drugs, then person 'A' is responsible, impaired or not impaired. Responsibility rests with the actor. Knowingly taking drugs is the action in your postulated mind altering cases. Transference of responsibility only occurs if taking those drugs was involuntary. It seems to me from your question, that you are just being argumentative. Whatever.
Best regards

[ScottL]

Can you point me to his testimony where he says he lost Martin and then was attacked by him as he "lay in waiting" as you put it?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/ ... ubled-back

I don't agree with all the details but the general timeline is correct. Martin had between a minute and two minutes to cover 90 yards to get home. Somehow George lost him but Tray couldn't get home.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/ ... -testimony

And DD? Her testimony is not admissible. She waited what? Two weeks? Three weeks? To tell her story - not to the police but to a lawyer for the Martins. One wonders why she didn't call the police when her boyfriend stopped responding after intimating he might be getting in a fight.

The purpose of DD is the court of public opinion.

If she does appear then I believe further inspection will show A. Corey has a similar tattoo on her arze.

That's where I'm torn. Zimmerman's full testimony hasn't been made available as of yet so it's hard to say. For all we know Trayvon ran and hid somewhere. A lot of speculation and I don't make final judgements without some strong evidence. As is, apparently its being reported that Zimmerman lied about his financial status and his possession of a passport so his bond has been revoked.

Zimmerman's defense team stated during an April court hearing that Zimmerman's "family members misinformed the court (the state would use a much stronger and accurate word to describe what occurred -- defendant's wife lied to the court) about defendant and his family's finances," Corey wrote in court papers.

She also said that Zimmerman has two passports, and the passport that he surrendered to the court at the April hearing was one that Zimmerman had reported stolen on March 8, 2004, court papers said. That passport was valid until May 2012, Corey said.

Zimmerman received a second passport on March 26, 2004, and that one is valid until 2014, she said.

[Diogenes]

Come on, at least read the report and Zimmerman's testimony prior to arrest. He's repeatedly said he followed the teen because he thoughthe was part of a group that had recently robbed the area, however; Trayvon was completely new to the area, that was the whole reason he was there. He had a disciplinary problem and got sent off to his father in another city.

I'm sorry but if Trayvon were a Straight A student and white, who had this happen to him, you wouldn't even bring it up.

You could just save us all a lot of time and say that you think we're wrong because you think we're "racists." Whatever.

That was a quick jump to conclusion seeing as I haven't raised the race card in my speculation.

Let's see... is there another way to interpret " if Trayvon were a Straight A student and white, who had this happen to him, you wouldn't even bring it up."


Actually, the fact that he isn't is just a distraction from the point *I* am trying to bring up, which is: People on drugs do stupid things.

It'd also be difficult since both individuals are minorities (Latino vs African-American). My personal opinion is that you're all speculating on the case in a favorable way to what you want to believe. This goes for both sides, but at least I said I was speculating, not stating lies as facts. As for you Diogenes, I just don't like you, plain and simple.

A normal reaction for a child being spanked.

[ScottL]

You could just save us all a lot of time and say that you think we're wrong because you think we're "racists." Whatever.

That was a quick jump to conclusion seeing as I haven't raised the race card in my speculation.

Let's see... is there another way to interpret " if Trayvon were a Straight A student and white, who had this happen to him, you wouldn't even bring it up."


Actually, the fact that he isn't is just a distraction from the point *I* am trying to bring up, which is: People on drugs do stupid things.

It'd also be difficult since both individuals are minorities (Latino vs African-American). My personal opinion is that you're all speculating on the case in a favorable way to what you want to believe. This goes for both sides, but at least I said I was speculating, not stating lies as facts. As for you Diogenes, I just don't like you, plain and simple.

A normal reaction for a child being spanked.

Yes your reactions have been that of a child. Not surprisingly when I engage individuals like MSimon, there is a respectable interaction. I asked for clarification on where he read his information and then it was up to me on how I would interpret that information. I have since pointed out it is speculation as ti is currently. The full testimony of Mr. Zimmerman has not been made public and at best we have maybe 15% of the information. This is clearly not enough to make a decision. My previous postings were to contrast possible other scenarios outside of the ones proposed. If you can't see the possibility of other scenarios than the one you make up in your head, then I'm at a loss and will no longer engage you in conversation.

On a side note, as I posted a quote, it is now coming out that Mr. Zimmerman and his wife have been lying about their financial situation as well as the possession of passports. His credibility is diminishing with each revelation so far. He has no reason to be afraid of a "trial by media" as both prosecution and defense have requested the evidence, statements, and such be sealed. This to me looks like a pre-meditated plan to skip country if he could get bond, though not definitive. Suspicious all the same.

As per your people on drugs do stupid things, well people not on drugs do stupid things. IE: George Zimmerman

[Skipjack]

I do aggree with ScottL here

1. Trayvon went to a convenience store, purchased some items and started heading back in the direction of his home. per Clerk's testimony and location of the death (public knowledge)

2. 911 Dispatch requested that Zimmerman not pursue the teen. (public knowledge, 911 call)

3. Zimmerman approached Trayvon. Zimmerman's brief statement, Trayvon's GF's testimony of a phone call.

4. A struggle ensued and Zimmerman fired his gun reportedly in self-defense. Witness testimony.

This is what I have read as well. Everything else seems to be speculation based on partial facts and doubtable testimonies.

[MSimon]

I do aggree with ScottL here

1. Trayvon went to a convenience store, purchased some items and started heading back in the direction of his home. per Clerk's testimony and location of the death (public knowledge)

2. 911 Dispatch requested that Zimmerman not pursue the teen. (public knowledge, 911 call)

3. Zimmerman approached Trayvon. Zimmerman's brief statement, Trayvon's GF's testimony of a phone call.

4. A struggle ensued and Zimmerman fired his gun reportedly in self-defense. Witness testimony.

This is what I have read as well. Everything else seems to be speculation based on partial facts and doubtable testimonies.

This is what I have read as well.

And that is the trouble. Most people did not see Duke Lacrosse/Nifong coming either from published reports. Until it all fell apart. Those who watched closely saw it fall apart earlier. I'm watching this closely.