It varies from state to state, but by and large the most they can do is make you wait a few months.
Yes, they generally result in higher premiums. As they should.
Amazingly, fire insurance is also more expensive or hard to get if your house is already on fire. Why do you suppose that is?
OK, so you are not denying it. At least some progress.
Now, if you read my previous post, I said that I would be less restrictive that they are, if I was the US government, but still have SOME of those restrictions that the private insurance companies have. Because In My Personal Opinion, there are some restrictions that make sense. Msimon was arguing that they dont make sense.
So we two TallDave are actually agreeing with each other and it is Msimon that does not agree.
You see?
Last edited by Skipjack on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Again: some medications don't have generic equivalents. You pay less for those as well, because your government negotiates prices.
You are free riders. You don't pay your fair share of production costs. This may be painful to you, but it is a fact.
Again, how can we be free riders, if we pay the same prices you do?
Hello? You read what I am saying yes?
We (as in us Austrians), pay the same prices (or almost the same prices), for non generic medications that you americans pay.
Why? Because when there is no genericon, then the company that owns the medication basically has a monopoly. So we are forced to pay their prices, if we want the medication.
You know the meaning of the word monopoly, right? Otherwise let me return the favor and point you into the right direction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
In September 1999, a Price Notification System was officially introduced in Austria. The pricing of drugs by the pharmaceutical industry is unregulated, but the authorities may intervene whenever they consider a price too high. The marketing authorisation holder must inform the ministry of the price six weeks prior to market entry. The price notification must bear information about the domestic prices of corresponding products. The price level of new drugs must not exceed that in the other EU countries.
Why? Because when there is no genericon, then the company that owns the medication basically has a monopoly. So we are forced to pay their prices, if we want the medication.
Ha, no. If a company wants access to the Euro market, they must play by Euro rules. Yes, either side could refuse to play, and incur a cost. Guess who has more leverage in that fight, a government or a private company that needs revenue to survive?
I said that I would be less restrictive that they are, if I was the US government, but still have SOME of those restrictions that the private insurance companies have.
Maybe, but probably not. You also claimed Austria was less restrictive, which I highly doubt.
Skipjack wrote:You should read the entire article, please.
I have. It clearly says you have price controls based on the Euro standard.
I've cited multiple sources now that say you pay less for prescription drugs than we do. You still claim you pay the same, and as best I can tell you have no source for this claim.
Please try to have some intellectual honesty here. It may be painful to realize you are free riders, but wishing it weren't so won't change it.
You also claimed Austria was less restrictive, which I highly doubt.
IN AUSTRIA EVERYONE GETS INSURANCE AND EVERYONE PAYS THE SAME!
You cant by system not be without insurance!
Oh man! Really!
That isn't the only kind of restriction. It doesn't matter if you have insurance if the guidelines say not to treat you. For instance, in Britain it was recently publicized that people were being put to death when they might have recovered, because of the national guidelines, or left to die at birth because they were born too early. In America this happens much less often.
In any case, not selling fire insurance to people whose houses are on fire is not a "restriction" but a normal market function. If you want welfare, don't call it "insurance."
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It also said in there that prescription drugs, that were above the price were still paid for, if there was no alternative. However they have to be prescribed by doctors (chefarzt).
If there are cheaper alternatives of equal quality available this doctor might recommend those.
So noone forces the companies to ask a lower price, if they dont want to. They do require a second opinion though before they get prescribed.
Yes? You read that right?
So no, no free riders.
For instance, in Britain it was recently publicized that people were being put to death when they might have recovered, because of the national guidelines, or left to die at birth because they were born too early. In America this happens much less often.
I dont care about fracking Britain. I am talking about Austria and only that.
From all I know the British system is among the worst in the EU. I definitely see that on their teeth. Unless they dont like brushing them for some reason, LOL.
Skipjack wrote:It also said in there that prescription drugs, that were above the price were still paid for, if there was no alternative. However they have to be prescribed by doctors (chefarzt).
If there are cheaper alternatives of equal quality available this doctor might recommend those.
So noone forces the companies to ask a lower price, if they dont want to. They do require a second opinion though before they get prescribed.
Yes? You read that right?
So no, no free riders.
Which part of "The price level of new drugs must not exceed that in the other EU countries." is confusing you?
The special assessment loophole doesn't say how pricing is done, but I doubt you can exceed the Euro standard. In any case 60% of the drugs available are on the explicitly price-controlled list.
So yes, all of Europe is free riding.
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For instance, in Britain it was recently publicized that people were being put to death when they might have recovered, because of the national guidelines, or left to die at birth because they were born too early. In America this happens much less often.
I dont care about fracking Britain. I am talking about Austria and only that.
From all I know the British system is among the worst in the EU. I definitely see that on their teeth. Unless they dont like brushing them for some reason, LOL.
Every socialized system has this to some degree. Austria is tiny and speaks German, or I could probably find more info on this.
Price controls seen as key to Europe's drug innovation lag
Peter Mitchell1
Pharmaceutical innovation is not only occurring faster in the United States than in Europe, but the gap is getting wider.
For those hoping that Europe might be redressing the imbalance in R&D innovation compared with the United States, two recent reports make gloomy reading. According to a competitiveness report published in November 2006 by the European Commission's high-level Pharmaceutical Forum, the US has established itself firmly as the key innovator in pharmaceuticals since 2000. "That dominant position continues to expand... a disproportionate share of pharmaceutical R&D is performed in the US," it laments.
...
Nor was this 'drug gap' due to faster FDA processing: both agencies have an identical mean approval time of 15.7 months. Instead, said Kaitin, drugs hit the US market first because the sponsors choose to submit them there first.
The advantage of the US is almost wholly down to its lack of price controls, says Kaitin. "Investors tend to invest in places where there is less control over prices, and it is always better to do your clinical trials in the countries where you plan to market," he says.
On the plus side, we get our drugs a year sooner than you. So we get better care. You guys have to wait a year longer, but you get a free ride.
Which part of "Drugs not included in the Heilmittelverzeichnis list are reimbursed only after a special assessment. In order to obtain reimbursement for such medication the patient must receive a prescription from a doctor eligible to make a decision on the necessity of the drug. Many new innovative and very costly drugs are included in this category" is confusing you, TallDave?
In regards to the pricing controlled list. It also said how those prices are established (together with the drug company). The fact that it must not exceed that of other EU- countries is a matter of self protection for Austria. Austria is a small country and pharmaceutical companies that have a monopoly on a product could try to negociate prices up since Austria is such a small market.
Also, again I point out that pharmaceuticals that are not in the system can still be prescribed if the patient needs them.