A Loss Of Faith

[MSimon]

They used to say that about computers, now 12 years olds are building their own computers (from parts).

I'd like to see a link about 12 year olds building PCs from parts. Esp how they handle soldering BGAs. Or parts with .25 mm pitch.

BTW how many hours of labor go into that PC? How many go into your desktop? Assume your desktop is $1500 and labor is $5 an hour. Can you build that PC in 300 hours including wiring harnesses, ink jet printer, scanner, etc? Will the USB work at 500 MHz? How about the programming of the programmable glue logic?

[JLawson]

How long did it take you to dismantle the stove, go down to Home Despot, buy the insulation, fit the insulation and put the whole thing back together again. A whole day is my guess. Time is money and it's valuable. That 100/hr I quoted is about average for a service call. The fact is for an engineer, replacing the insulation jacket is a very low logistics item. For most stoves the MTBF for the fiberglass is beyond the expected life of the stove. The fact is that the parts that do need to be replaced, like the heating elements are easily removed, often without screws. Some of the other parts, like the timer, actually are designed to come out as easily replaces units. but major structural element just don't fail that often. Which means they don't have to be accessible or removable.

We had a $600 washer fail - had a repairman come out, that was $150. The part needed would have cost $275, with an additional two hours labor (by the book) at $110/hr to remove and replace. So we're looking at $645 to repair a 6 year old washer.

We bought a $300 washer from Home Despot instead. So it doesn't have a 'thick sail canvas' or 'diaphanous silk gauze' setting - it still gets the clothes clean. For us, washers are now disposable items - use it for 4 or 5 years, put a buck aside each time you use it to pay for the replacement, and WHEN (not IF) it dies just get a new one. The old one gets recycled, at least. Microwaves also - they're too cheap to fix.

No, I don't really like the throwaway mentality behind that - but it's what we've got.

[MSimon]

Josh Cryer wrote:
The reason ovens are not designed for the consumer to fix or repair is because there is no demand for it. Plain and freaking simple.

So the market delivers what people want at a price they can afford. And you consider that a defect.

But here is an option: if the way stoves are made bothers you so much why don't you build your own? After all 12 year olds are building PCs.

[MSimon]

No, I don't really like the throwaway mentality behind that - but it's what we've got.

You could always pay the going rate for an industrial strength washer.

[MirariNefas]

I think the criticism here is more about society than the engineers and companies that supply products. They just provide what the market wants.

It would be kind of nice if society always wanted reliable products, or products made for simple repair. Then factories made for throwaway products would be retooled, and the "going rate" for whatever would come down and be a bit more affordable.

[MSimon]

I think the criticism here is more about society than the engineers and companies that supply products. They just provide what the market wants.

It would be kind of nice if society always wanted reliable products, or products made for simple repair. Then factories made for throwaway products would be retooled, and the "going rate" for whatever would come down and be a bit more affordable.

When we were a society of farmers who knew how to fix things that is what we got. Things you could fix. We are not that society any more.

[olivier]

So the market delivers what people want at a price they can afford.

With all due respect, this is a bit of a "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds" argument.
Is is reasonable to consider washers as expendable? No.
As an average consumer, I decided to enter rebellion (metaphorically) and now buy expensive and solid stuff (German built). I cannot afford junk anymore.

[MSimon]

So the market delivers what people want at a price they can afford.

With all due respect, this is a bit of a "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds" argument. :smile:
Is is reasonable to consider washers as expendable? No.
As an average consumer, I decided to enter rebellion (metaphorically) and now buy expensive and solid stuff (German built). I cannot afford junk anymore.

Excellent. More of them will get made.

But consider a kid just starting out. He wants a washer but can't afford a Lexus washer. So he buys a small Toyota washer.

The question you have to ask is:

What is saving 3 hours a week (plus the convenience of wash emergency coverage) worth? $5 a week? More if you add in the cost of a laundromat?

That is $250 a year. If the washer lasts 5 years That is a savings of $750. And I didn't even count what the extra 3 hours a week might be worth.

I really don't care if my washer lasts. I just want to profit from it. And I want the capital cost to be in my budget.

[MSimon]

Washers like cars are expendable. Five years from now better models will be on the market.

Why have a washer good for 20 years when in 5 years the economy features of the new models will pay for the newest machines?

The biggest cost of washing is the hot water.

[Josh Cryer]

BenTC,

Correct. Hence simple-consumer-repair is NOT a design objective.

I realize that. The world is not built for individualists. However, I am pleased with companies like HP and Toshiba who include full breakdown manuals for laptops (down to the last screw that holds in the last component). They don't have to include those manuals because there's no real demand for them, and if they did they could charge for them like it used to be done (and is still done; try getting a breakdown manual for your TV).

Oh, and I didn't put screen on the oven because I forgot to buy it at Home Depot and I'd caught the mouse anyway. I moved fairly soon after, when I almost got killed by a bullet passing a few inches from my face.



MSimon, did you miss the "from parts" bit? They don't make their own computers from base ICs, they take video cards, mother boards (usually integrated with sound so no sound card), power supplies, and cases, and built their own computer. When I was growing up this was more difficult because standards didn't exist, and case design was abysmal. 10 screws on one 286 I had. I took out all but 4 because I was constantly doing upgrades to it.

Here's a site: http://www.mysuperpc.com/

NewEgg has DYI projects: http://www.newegg.com/Store/MasterCombo ... -PC-Combos

I don't have proof that teens do this because a cursory glance on Google isn't being helpful. But I do know for a fact that kids build their own gaming setups from my experience in the gaming world. Given that you thought I was saying that they were making them from scratch I think you can believe me that yes, teens do build their own combos. And I say that is in part due to the standardization in the PC world, which there was a demand for. Especially since it means a kid with an allowance or a part time lawn mowing job can actually afford a setup which through other paths would be far more expensive.

[MSimon]

MSimon, did you miss the "from parts" bit?

When I built computers from parts I used parts. Chips, resistors, capacitors, I even designed my own boards.

Any one can do assembly. Screwdriver work. I'm talking real "build a computer".

You might as well say someone is programming a computer when they download an application and tell the application you'd prefer English to Spanish.

BTW I'm in touch with folks who actually do build computers.

[chrismb]

Depends what you call 'a computer'. Also, depends on what you mean by 'build.

Piecing together a pile of commercial computer parts in a jigsaw is certainly excellent work by a 12 year old, but lacks a certain originality.

I put an M6800 to work in a circuit, when I was 12, and was helped by other similarly age-challenged chaps like myself who knew even more that I did!

We (in out school electronics club) were also mesmerised by the Sinclair ZX80, and subsequently ZX81, building various add-ons to that silly little expansion port at the back. Probably more tech there than building up a commercial motherboard into a commercial housing with commercial power supplies, &c., &c..

Not that I would try to put down any successful completion of a computer build, but I am very enthusiastic when I see a little 'ingenuity' applied as well to problems not solved by commercial parts alone.

[DeltaV]

You haven't truly built a computer until you've turned a pile of sand into a CPU.

[unless it's an analog computer, then Radio Shack grab bag parts will do...]

[yes, I'm old enough to remember when Allied/Radio Shack sold grab bags]

[JLawson]

No, I don't really like the throwaway mentality behind that - but it's what we've got.

You could always pay the going rate for an industrial strength washer.

I COULD - but I don't see the utility in doing that. The cost vs benefit curve as far as I'm concerned doesn't bend in that direction. And I don't particularly want to get a washer that'll outlive me. Besides - likely something would fail from LACK of heavy use like a transmission seal, requiring (once again!) an expensive service call.

No, I think I'll go with the particular plan we've got...

[MSimon]

As long as we are on the subject: I have a small stack of Z-80 single board computers from 1982. Bare boards. Should any one be interested.

I wouldn't mention it except that some one just bought one from me. My first sale in 15 years or so.