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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

That is their stated purpose, but how do you protect the innocent by letting murderers kill more of them ?
Honest government without costs. It is a novel concept.

Or perhaps perfect justice. Generally considered to be available in heaven and not earth.

===

Robert Bolt wrote a play about it which I will quote here. Thomas More is arguing with Roper about the seriousness of swearing an oath:

More: There is no law against that.

Roper: There is! God's law!

More: Then God can arrest him.

Roper: Sophistication upon sophistication.

More: No, sheer simplicity. The law, Roper, the law. I know what's legal not what's right. And I'll stick to what's legal.

Roper: Then you set man's law above God's!

More: No, far below; but let me draw your attention to a fact - I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. I'm no voyager. But in the thickets of the law, oh, there I'm a forrester. I doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there, thank God....

Alice: While you talk, he's gone!

More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!

More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you - where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast - man's laws, not God's - and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.


http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... asons.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Apart from that, a main aim of professional software designers is to write code in such a way that another person can read it, (and modify or port to it) not just the person who created it.
I wrote some code for control of a military radio in FORTH. The government inspector who looked at it said it was the most readable code he had looked at in years. Very few comments. The code read more or less like English.

Good programmers can make FORTH code read like natural language. Bad programmers of course can make a total hash out of it.

C had Bell Labs behind it. FORTH just had Chuck Moore and a few dedicated followers.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

jmc
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Post by jmc »

ravingdave wrote: Funny thing. The constitution doesn't guarantee us equal outcome in our lives, but it does guarantee equal treatment under the law. What a joke. It is laughable to think that a poor man and a rich man would get the same treatment.

I personally think that capitalism in the legal system should be illegal. Socialize the legal system !!!!!

Make ALL people have equivilant acess to legal representation, and it would even curtail excesses by the rich.

David
I agree, it should be illegal for rich people to give money to lawyers. I also believe it should by illegal for private companies and institutions to contribute money to political parties.

I'm all for capitalism in terms of buying stuff and property. But nobody should be allowed to buy the law.

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:
That is their stated purpose, but how do you protect the innocent by letting murderers kill more of them ?
Honest government without costs. It is a novel concept.

Or perhaps perfect justice. Generally considered to be available in heaven and not earth.

===

Robert Bolt wrote a play about it which I will quote here. Thomas More is arguing with Roper about the seriousness of swearing an oath:

More: There is no law against that.

Roper: There is! God's law!

More: Then God can arrest him.

Roper: Sophistication upon sophistication.

More: No, sheer simplicity. The law, Roper, the law. I know what's legal not what's right. And I'll stick to what's legal.

Roper: Then you set man's law above God's!

More: No, far below; but let me draw your attention to a fact - I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. I'm no voyager. But in the thickets of the law, oh, there I'm a forrester. I doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there, thank God....

Alice: While you talk, he's gone!

More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!

More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you - where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast - man's laws, not God's - and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.


http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... asons.html
That is entertaining prose, but no part of it can be considered reasoned or logical. The "Devil" respects neither the laws of man nor the laws of God.

It is just sophistory.


It does have one redeeming point. It describes exactly the dangers of subjective moralism. As i've mentioned in the case of slavery, whithout a common definition of morality, people ideas on the morality of something may be quite different.

Hence " I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate"


Neither can anyone else.


The law, MSimon, the law.



David

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:
Apart from that, a main aim of professional software designers is to write code in such a way that another person can read it, (and modify or port to it) not just the person who created it.
I wrote some code for control of a military radio in FORTH. The government inspector who looked at it said it was the most readable code he had looked at in years. Very few comments. The code read more or less like English.

Good programmers can make FORTH code read like natural language. Bad programmers of course can make a total hash out of it.

C had Bell Labs behind it. FORTH just had Chuck Moore and a few dedicated followers.

I have always prefered machine code or assembly for building "devices". It gives much more powerful control of everything that's going on. Writting in a language always feels to me like the translator is mis-translating something, or doing it inefficiently, and for that reason I prefer speaking to the processor in it's native tounge.
:)

The only headache is when you switch to a new processor and have to learn a new instruction set. Of course if you're switching processors, you have to learn a new architecture, and most of them have instructions that are specific to it anyway.


The last project I did was a month ago. It was a storm siren controller for the little town of Pocasset. They wanted a siren that could be activated by radio, telephone, and wireline pushbutton, as well as being powered by AC line voltage and battery backup. I used Microchips PIC 16F690, and everything worked splendidly.

I took a look at your ARM chips. Apparently they are pretty common and have been for a long time. Do they have any advantages that would make them worth learning a new architecture and instruction set ?

I find myself experiencing "New fatigue" when it comes to looking at the latest and greatest "new" stuff. (new to me anyway)



David

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

David,

The purpose of laws is to restrain the Devil. Perfect? Well no.

I believe from my experience discussing things with you that you are a utopian absolutist. Such rigidity and demands for perfection usually ends badly. We see that even in warfare. The #1 complaint the Soviets had against Americans was that they didn't even follow their own doctrine in warfare.

You may not like flexible morality but it has the advantage of being flexible. The ceramic pot cracks when dropped. The steel one is merely dented. And you know what? The steel pot can be pounded back into shape. But all the Kings horses and all the Kings men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.

And if you look over the vast sweep of history very few moral conventions survive. Slavery? Gone. Plural marriage gone. etc. Gone completely? - Well that never happens. There are always remnants. But the remnants no longer dominate.

We used to think that pornography was a heinous crime. Now? In so far as criminal law goes no one gets excited about it.

Blasphemy? The West no longer prosecutes it.

Stoning for adultery? Only primitives practice it. etc.

Most "eternal" truths are really temporary. There are a few that last and are fundamental. But there are not many of those.

I fall on the side of keeping the really eternal stuff - no murdering, no stealing, no cheating in business, and letting the rest of the stuff be determined how people actually behave. Let the Amish keep their culture, let the Orthodox Jews keep theirs, etc. The fewer the rules, the better. What survives will be what works.

The impediments to change of the zeitgeist ought to be minimal. Let a thousand cultures bloom.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:David,

The purpose of laws is to restrain the Devil. Perfect? Well no...



There is no "Devil."

Manifestations of the "Devil's Handiwork" are nothing more than the "Invisible hand of Morality economics" occuring. It LOOKS like there is an intelligence at work, when in fact there isn't.
MSimon wrote: I believe from my experience discussing things with you that you are a utopian absolutist. Such rigidity and demands for perfection usually ends badly. We see that even in warfare. The #1 complaint the Soviets had against Americans was that they didn't even follow their own doctrine in warfare..


Gaaakk !!! I'm wounded ! Deeply wounded ! I cannot comprehend how you could come to such a conclusion from anything i've written. I must really be doing a TERRIBLE job of explaining my worldview.

No, i'm not a utopian. I am a optimizationist. I believe in any system it is unlikely that you will ever achieve 100% efficiency. The best you can do is to optimize your efficiency and tolerate your losses. As far as rigidity goes, show me a parameter that changes, and i'll show you where the losses are going up and down.

MSimon wrote: You may not like flexible morality but it has the advantage of being flexible. The ceramic pot cracks when dropped. The steel one is merely dented. And you know what? The steel pot can be pounded back into shape. But all the Kings horses and all the Kings men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.

And if you look over the vast sweep of history very few moral conventions survive. Slavery? Gone. Plural marriage gone. etc. Gone completely? - Well that never happens. There are always remnants. But the remnants no longer dominate.

We used to think that pornography was a heinous crime. Now? In so far as criminal law goes no one gets excited about it.

Blasphemy? The West no longer prosecutes it.

Stoning for adultery? Only primitives practice it. etc.

Most "eternal" truths are really temporary. There are a few that last and are fundamental. But there are not many of those.

I fall on the side of keeping the really eternal stuff - no murdering, no stealing, no cheating in business, and letting the rest of the stuff be determined how people actually behave. Let the Amish keep their culture, let the Orthodox Jews keep theirs, etc. The fewer the rules, the better. What survives will be what works.

The impediments to change of the zeitgeist ought to be minimal. Let a thousand cultures bloom.

I don't know anything about "Eternal Truths", but human nature is the product of 4.5 billion years of evolution, and it's pretty much a constant in terms of human society. I'm sure it's still evolving, but the basic firmware is pretty darn solid.

Part of my current world view is based on the idea that the bootstrap program of human beings is pretty solid with some variations due to immediate evolutionary causes.

That being said, in the traditional sense, humans are instinctively EVIL, and it is only through the evolution of social interaction that humans have developed methods for counteracting the anti-survivability aspects of individual self-centered nature.

I used to think of people as individuals, but it is more complicated than that. As the cells in our bodies specialize and perform different functions, so does the human race represent a macro-scopic fractal equivilant of this.

A single human being could not be created by nature. Only a race of them. In order for the species to survive, there had to be safeguards and checks and balances.


Ooohhh this is getting long again. I HATE writting long messages because I KNOW they don't absorb well. I'm gonna stop now, perhaps you can see where i'm going.


Evil is basically self-centered indulgence without knowledge or regard as to how dangerous it is to the rest of the tribe. It is basically a constant, and "objective morality" is possible.



David

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Just to update on a point I often make about the USs bad choices in its allies.
Pakistan is on the verge of anarchy and this is a country that already has nukes. Now the police there is mass quitting out of fear from Al Quaida. The new government is more islamistic than the old one was and generally things dont look to great with the general population there either. The attackers in Mumbai came from there, Osama is probably hiding there and yet, the US still has most of its troops in Iraq and not there... Very weird...
I for one am fracking scared by the situation in Pakistan, I can tell you that!

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Dave,

Yes there are different cells in the body. And it is a good analogy with human culture.

There are people out there (you know who they are) who think liver cells are good and spleen cells are bad. Others who think that the heart cells and the lung cells ought to join to together to eliminate the brain cells which get way too many resources.

And then there is the difficulty of general optimization vs individual optimization. The USA generally chooses individual optimization as producing the best general results. And it seems to work rather well. Judging by results.

Take my own case for instance - I require a lot more vitamin C than average to maintain optimum health. A general optimization would say my consumption is out of line. Individual optimization works for me.

Now I have gone through the technical stuff so often I'm going to assume you are up on it. So let me fly here:

About 5% to 15% of the population needs anti-depressants for optimum function. So do we do a general optimization where we divide the average supply needed per person among the whole population? Or do we do the individual thing and let those who need anti-depressants get what they need and the remaining population can ignore the whole business?

Which brings us to the final question. Do we only allow the medical cartel to supply the drugs or should people be allowed to grow their own? Before 1937 and for at least 5,000 years growing your own was a viable option.

So tell me why was the wisdom of 5,000 years suddenly discarded?

History says that the reason was to induce Mexican labor to move back to Mexico at the height of the depression in order to raise wages in America by reducing competition. Now targeting Mexicans per se would have been naughty. So we targeted the natural anti-depressant use that was pretty much specific to the Mexican population. At least at that time.

And of course the reason all this continues is that the drug cartel produces about $50 bn a year in anti-depressants at about $1 a dose. Think of what it would meant to them if people were producing their own at 1 cent a dose.

Now most right thinking people are against government support for cartels legitimate or illegitimate. However, in the case of anti-depressants the interests of a legitimate and an illegitimate cartel coincide and they have convinced the general population that natural anti-depressants are bad and cartel provided ones are good. And hallelujah. You have your choice of cartels depending on what you can afford.

That doesn't seem like an optimum solution to me. YMMV.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

And further David,

What makes you a utopian is that you are sure (despite the limitations of knowledge amply demonstrated by Hayek) you know what is good for a lot of other individuals. Despite the limitations of your knowledge.

The genius of America is leaving individuals alone to pursue their own paths.

Just because some folks are doing things that seem counter productive to you does not mean it is counter productive for them.

You see what appears to be dysfunction and say bad. I look at the same "dysfunction" and say - maybe it is the best they can do under the circumstances. You say crutches are bad and I say that without them some folks couldn't even hobble along.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

I imagine its easier to exert influence over someone whose your allie than not.

Which is why generally I'm in favour of making friends with other countries, rather than trade embargos and such like which never seem to work well in the end and only help to isolate the country futher, leading to yet more extreme differences between them and us.

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:Dave,

Yes there are different cells in the body. And it is a good analogy with human culture.

There are people out there (you know who they are) who think liver cells are good and spleen cells are bad. Others who think that the heart cells and the lung cells ought to join to together to eliminate the brain cells which get way too many resources..
There are also cancers (criminals), pre-cancerous cells (liberals), viruses (bad memes), bad bacterial infections (terrorists), toxins (drugs) and immune\indocrine system response.(Police\Medical)

Sometimes the immune response overreacts and attacks portions of the body, but most of the time it's attacking something toxic like cancer, viruses, or bacteria.

Obviously if the immune system attacks any necessary cells it is a fatal disease. More often though, the immune regulation system (courts) gets out of whack and allows various antigens (criminals,liberals,bad memes,terrorists, and drugs) to run amuck. This eventually results in a inflammation (violent conflicts in various parts of the body) and fever (anger from unhappy cells) and is eventually resolved with an occcasional purge of antigens. (election\defecation)

In any case, the brain of this nation is infected with cancer and precancerous growths, and it has grown massive blood supplies(angiogenesis) from the rest of the body to feed this massive tumor. All attempts at antigenesis have been so far futile, and unless something stops it, it is quite likely to be fatal.


MSimon wrote: And then there is the difficulty of general optimization vs individual optimization. The USA generally chooses individual optimization as producing the best general results. And it seems to work rather well. Judging by results.

Take my own case for instance - I require a lot more vitamin C than average to maintain optimum health. A general optimization would say my consumption is out of line. Individual optimization works for me.
.

Even individual cells in a body have variations, and these are normal within a range. Mitochondria are more or less efficient depending on factors such as age, expousure to toxins\viruses, and defective copying etc.


MSimon wrote: Now I have gone through the technical stuff so often I'm going to assume you are up on it. So let me fly here:

About 5% to 15% of the population needs anti-depressants for optimum function. So do we do a general optimization where we divide the average supply needed per person among the whole population? Or do we do the individual thing and let those who need anti-depressants get what they need and the remaining population can ignore the whole business?

Which brings us to the final question. Do we only allow the medical cartel to supply the drugs or should people be allowed to grow their own? Before 1937 and for at least 5,000 years growing your own was a viable option.

So tell me why was the wisdom of 5,000 years suddenly discarded?

History says that the reason was to induce Mexican labor to move back to Mexico at the height of the depression in order to raise wages in America by reducing competition. Now targeting Mexicans per se would have been naughty. So we targeted the natural anti-depressant use that was pretty much specific to the Mexican population. At least at that time.

And of course the reason all this continues is that the drug cartel produces about $50 bn a year in anti-depressants at about $1 a dose. Think of what it would meant to them if people were producing their own at 1 cent a dose.

Now most right thinking people are against government support for cartels legitimate or illegitimate. However, in the case of anti-depressants the interests of a legitimate and an illegitimate cartel coincide and they have convinced the general population that natural anti-depressants are bad and cartel provided ones are good. And hallelujah. You have your choice of cartels depending on what you can afford.

That doesn't seem like an optimum solution to me. YMMV.

Plants evolved toxins to prevent animals from eating them. Plant toxins were derived from plant enzimes which were modified (by evolution) to interfer with the normal operation of the herbivoure's nervous system.
The purpose was to prevent consumption of the plant by killing or disorienting the animal, but animals have co-evolved to not only tolerate the toxins, but to enjoy them.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Para ... 3603.shtml


http://www.physorg.com/news140014006.html

Fortunately, most people who've never been exposed to these various plant toxins have no need for them, but unfortunately, some who are more sensitive to the effects, rewire their brains to stimulate their pleasure centers as a result of their consumption of the plant toxins. In the natural world these individuals would likely consume so much of the plant toxin that they would crash and die, and thence forth not bother the plants anymore, but in the artificial structure that is modern society, the natural (evolved) outcome is prevented.


The bottom line is, Drugs are a self defense mechanism for plants. People need to leave the poor plants alone. :)


David

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

MSimon wrote:And further David,

What makes you a utopian is that you are sure (despite the limitations of knowledge amply demonstrated by Hayek) you know what is good for a lot of other individuals. Despite the limitations of your knowledge. .
My knowledge is indeed limited, and that's why I encourage everyone to understand the general form rather than the specific equation describing humanity. In terms of predictions, it's better than just guessing. Sure, it might result in an incorrect answer in specificity, but in generality it's tends to be statistically correct.
MSimon wrote: The genius of America is leaving individuals alone to pursue their own paths. .
Within a framework of commonly accepted rules. Firing bullets into the air might be fun, (in a populated area) but it has a high probability of injuring others. Therefore, even if a person can attest that they've done it hundreds of times without hurting anyone, we ought still to prohibit it on the basis that the probabilites will catch up eventually.

MSimon wrote: Just because some folks are doing things that seem counter productive to you does not mean it is counter productive for them.

You see what appears to be dysfunction and say bad. I look at the same "dysfunction" and say - maybe it is the best they can do under the circumstances. You say crutches are bad and I say that without them some folks couldn't even hobble along.
I like to enjoy myself as much as the next person, but if I end up getting AIDs, I need to keep my penis in my trousers from that point on, not for my own sake, but for the sake of others. (by the way, that would end up being counter productive for me too, but I would only come to realize it after the fact. ) Maybe someone should take away my crutch? (viagra)

:}


David

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

Nanos wrote:I imagine its easier to exert influence over someone whose your allie than not.

Which is why generally I'm in favour of making friends with other countries, rather than trade embargos and such like which never seem to work well in the end and only help to isolate the country futher, leading to yet more extreme differences between them and us.

Years ago I supported the embargo against Cuba etc., but I changed my mind. The more I learned about the relationship between prosperity and liberalism, the more I realized that embargoing countrys that didn't agree with us was the worst strategy. Show them capitalism, make them rich, let them save face, and they will start seeing things our way.

David

Munchausen
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Post by Munchausen »

About 5% to 15% of the population needs anti-depressants for optimum function. So do we do a general optimization where we divide the average supply needed per person among the whole population? Or do we do the individual thing and let those who need anti-depressants get what they need and the remaining population can ignore the whole business?
And then there is the difficulty of general optimization vs individual optimization. The USA generally chooses individual optimization as producing the best general results. And it seems to work rather well. Judging by results.
Well, mr. Simon, please explain to me how is a society, where 5-15% of the populatione needs anti-depressants, individually optimized?

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