Liberty Is Dangerous

[KitemanSA]

I think that I do not have a better answer in the aggregate. This is such a hard topic. The basic rub is we are talking about use of substances that remove/reduce folks ability to reason. So once they are under active influence (leaving the compounding effect of potential addiction out of it) it is arguable that they can not be held accountable for their actions if society permits them to use it in the first place.

Either the users are adults, and MUST be held accountable for their actions in any sane civilization, or they are not and must be considered juveniles by any sane civilization. Adults of any age would not be acting responsibly if they sell such drugs to unsupervised juveniles of any age and must be held accountable for the results. Simple.

[Diogenes]

Little children put their fingers in their ears and go NA NA NA NA NA NA....
And for the same reason.

No. I skip your posts because they are trash. Because I think you are narrow minded landlocked redneck trash.

Don't beat around the bush man, Tell me what you really think!

It's not even condescension, it's just the only way I can make sense of everything you write. So, not having anything that's proper for this forum's admittedly familiar but good willed ambiance, I skip your posts.

Why would I bother responding to your posts when I have so little positive and constructive to add? I guess this self-discipline is "childish".

Time for some "redneck" wisdom.

If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, you can tell which one you hit because it's yelping. Given the vehemence of your response, i'd say that "rock" must have smarted. This is the sort of response that I am accustomed to from libertarian types because they cannot help but behave like little children who've had their hand slapped and been told "No." This is how you look in my mind's eye.

Your alternative ideal society appears to be utopian hand waving.

Nope. Just more rigorously comprehensive, diligent exercise of the best parts of judeochristian and all other cultures... C.F. e.g. Joseph Campbell for an example of how to synthesize from many seemingly disparate cultures and traditions.
It is again as always, Reason.

I will check into that. Hopefully it is not a bunch of psychobabble. One thing i've noticed a lot is that people seem to discount the fact that they are floating in an Ocean of Judeo-Christian society while postulating a future in which it doesn't play a role. They seem to think the civilizing components of such a society would exist without their roots.

[Betruger]

Again you just have no idea who you're talking to.

[ScottL]

I wouldn't bother Betruger. Once you've made a well reasoned argument that he can't refute, he ignores it and moves on to someone else, while posting pictures to his threads as though they prove his point. Unfortunately this was the tactic of many with weak arguments in the early/mid90s when the internet was "new." He didn't get the memo yet....

[Betruger]

Don't worry about it.

[Diogenes]

Again you just have no idea who you're talking to.

Ideas stand on their own merit and are no respecters of persons.

[Diogenes]

I wouldn't bother Betruger. Once you've made a well reasoned argument that he can't refute, he ignores it and moves on to someone else,

From my perspective you are describing your own behavior vis-à-vis discussions I have had with you. We never finished discussing how alike are Homosexuality and Pedophilia because you didn't like being confronted with the similarities. As for your contention that addiction is caused by "pushing", I simply cannot comprehend it. To me it is like alleging that Ducks cause ponds, or that Fish cause Oceans. It is a side effect of the salient characteristic of any addictive substance.

while posting pictures to his threads as though they prove his point.

The pictures are to provide entertainment and also to emphasize my point. If one is going to argue with unreasonable people, one might as well have fun doing so. I have always regarded libertarians as spoiled rotten little children who don't like being told "no." If you can point out to me in history a successful libertarian society, I would be pleased to examine it. I expect I will find Unicorns there also.

Unfortunately this was the tactic of many with weak arguments in the early/mid90s when the internet was "new." He didn't get the memo yet....

It is my belief that people tend to be moved more by emotional arguments than by logical ones. I like to try both. Often I cannot get my point across with either because some people do not have minds open enough to consider the possibility they might be wrong about something on which they have spent a long time insisting they are right.

As Simon has pointed out before, often times progress is made in physics when the old school dies, not because they accepted a new idea.

[ScottL]

Sadly we just don't see eye-to-eye and don't think we can reconcile any of our differences. What you state in the homosexuality vs pedophilia debate as "similarities" I just don't see. You might as well be telling me mice are elephants or vice-versa, I don't see any logic in it.

As for pushing leading to addiction, I believe a person physically threatened will take said drugs and potentially develop an addiction. I believe long term use leads to addiction. I don't believe that availability leads to addiction. There are several drugs...or glues...available to me currently and yet I don't do/huff any of them nor intend too. I find it highly unlikely that if you remove restrictive laws on drugs while increasing education on drugs, you will see an increase in use. Several countries have lax drug laws and haven't seen a collapse. Are they some special exception?

Luckily I'm part of the new school, so I guess when all you oldies die off, I'll get to see this great world collapse.

[Diogenes]

Sadly we just don't see eye-to-eye and don't think we can reconcile any of our differences. What you state in the homosexuality vs pedophilia debate as "similarities" I just don't see. You might as well be telling me mice are elephants or vice-versa, I don't see any logic in it.

And that is how I feel about your "pushing" argument. It doesn't make any sense to me.

As for pushing leading to addiction, I believe a person physically threatened will take said drugs and potentially develop an addiction. I believe long term use leads to addiction. I don't believe that availability leads to addiction. There are several drugs...or glues...available to me currently and yet I don't do/huff any of them nor intend too. I find it highly unlikely that if you remove restrictive laws on drugs while increasing education on drugs, you will see an increase in use. Several countries have lax drug laws and haven't seen a collapse. Are they some special exception?

You mean like the Amsterdam in the Netherlands? Not quite the same thing as unencumbered free usage by an entire nation. The limited scope limits the damage. I suspect many of the Users of Amsterdam are not the locals themselves, but more like Vacation dopers.

Years ago I used to know a guy who claimed to be the son of a Federal Judge. He lived in Amsterdam and he really loved it. He came back to the United States to attend a funeral, and then found he couldn't leave. Apparently he had some warrants out for him. He was an expatriate Amsterdam Doper, but he stayed away from the hard stuff. Pot was the only thing he did.

Luckily I'm part of the new school, so I guess when all you oldies die off, I'll get to see this great world collapse.

Your comment reminds me of the man who said that when he was 18, he couldn't believe how stupid his father was, but by the time he turned 21 he was amazed at how much the old man had learned in the past three years.

[ScottL]

And that is how I feel about your "pushing" argument. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I just don't think I'd start doing drugs just because they're available. You may feel different about yourself, but no amount of availability is going to get me to do them. That's my argument on pushing vs. availability. If you educate people on the subject while available, I think you'll find most people will stay away and/or drugs will become a problem of the past, but there are only a few real world cases.


As for your "old man" story, I'll admit I'm young, but my view from my teens, through 20s and entering 30s haven't changed. I tend to try to abide by a common sense interpretation of "live and let live." Of course common sense is subjective.

[MSimon]

D represnts the totalitarian impulse in America.

http://classicalvalues.com/2012/01/figh ... nd-losing/

and judging by current politics that impulse is rather strong these days.

http://classicalvalues.com/2012/01/well ... -of-views/

It was a nice country while it lasted.

You will note that both Mr. Gingrich and Mr. D both are American Southerners - a place where the totalitarian impulse has always been rather strong. You know the deal: "with a strong enough police state any social problem can be fixed."

I do have hope for the future though. Culture warriors couldn't defeat jazz. They couldn't defeat rock 'n roll. And they are losing to drugs as well. In another 50 years the Drug War will be seen to have been a quaint aberration lasting over 100 years. A long time to remain stupid to be sure.

[MSimon]

And that is how I feel about your "pushing" argument. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I just don't think I'd start doing drugs just because they're available. You may feel different about yourself, but no amount of availability is going to get me to do them. That's my argument on pushing vs. availability. If you educate people on the subject while available, I think you'll find most people will stay away and/or drugs will become a problem of the past, but there are only a few real world cases.

As for your "old man" story, I'll admit I'm young, but my view from my teens, through 20s and entering 30s haven't changed. I tend to try to abide by a common sense interpretation of "live and let live." Of course common sense is subjective.

I don't think you have to worry. For those people who don't need the drugs the side effects are rather unpleasant. By age 25 about 50% of Americans will have tried an illegal drug in the last year. By age 35 the number is down to 25% with further declines as the population gets older.

BTW the 50% number is exactly why Drug Prohibition continues to lose ground.

In fact a historical study of substance prohibitions (tobacco, coffee, etc.) shows that they last about 50 years from inception to end. Familiarity breeds indifference. So when did the drug "culture" become popular in America? 1970 would be a good starting point - about 3 or 4 years into hippie culture and 2 years before Nixon declared his war on drugs. Add 50 to that and you get 2020. Less than 10 years away.

My retired police detective friend thinks it will be over by 2016. Roughly 50 years from inception.

The morals police lost to jazz. They lost to rock 'n roll (I remember ministers preaching against it for several decades). And they will lose to drugs. Just as they lost to alcohol.

Evidently stupidity is not just a personal problem. It seems to be cultural as well. The Soviets had their war against American culture (jazz and rock 'n roll were near the top of their hit list). The Iranians are having similar problems.

http://classicalvalues.com/2012/01/figh ... nd-losing/

What D does not get is that culture wars are losers. As are culture warriors. But learning from history does not seem to be a culture warrior's strong point. See:

http://classicalvalues.com/2012/01/well ... -of-views/

[CKay]

I just don't think I'd start doing drugs just because they're available.

Psilocybe semilanceata - magic mushrooms - grow the length and breadth of the British Isles. Their psychedelic effects have been widely known since the 60's, yet relatively few people have tried them - fewer still taken them more than once.

[MSimon]

I just don't think I'd start doing drugs just because they're available.

Psilocybe semilanceata - magic mushrooms - grow the length and breadth of the British Isles. Their psychedelic effects have been widely known since the 60's, yet relatively few people have tried them - fewer still taken them more than once.

http://www.magic-mushrooms.net/picking.html

In 1955, Valentina and R. Gordon Wasson became the first Westerners to actively participate in an indigenous mushroom ceremony. The Wassons did much to publicize their discovery, even publishing an article on their experiences in Life in 1957.[8] In 1956 Roger Heim identified the hallucinogenic mushroom that the Wassons had brought back from Mexico as Psilocybe, and in 1958, Albert Hofmann first identified psilocin and psilocybin as the active compounds in these mushrooms.

Inspired by the Wassons' Life article, Timothy Leary traveled to Mexico to experience hallucinogenic mushrooms firsthand. Upon returning to Harvard in 1960, he and Richard Alpert started the Harvard Psilocybin Project, promoting psychological and religious study of psilocybin and other hallucinogenic drugs. After Leary and Alpert were dismissed by Harvard in 1963, they turned their attention toward promoting the psychedelic experience to the nascent hippie counterculture.

The popularization of entheogens by Wasson, Leary, authors Terence McKenna and Robert Anton Wilson, and others has led to an explosion in the use of hallucinogenic Psilocybe throughout the world. By the early 1970s, a number of psychoactive Psilocybe species were described from temperate North America, Europe, and Asia and were widely collected. Books describing methods of cultivating Psilocybe cubensis in large quantities were also published. The availability of hallucinogenic Psilocybe from wild and cultivated sources has made it among the most widely used of the hallucinogenic drugs.

At present, hallucinogenic mushroom use has been reported among a number of groups spanning from central Mexico to Oaxaca, including groups of Nahua, Mixtecs, Mixe, Mazatecs,[9] Zapotecs, and others. An important figure of mushroom usage in Mexico was Maria Sabina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin_mushroom

[CKay]

The ingredients for opium tea (dried poppies/ poppy seeds) can be readily bought in most, if not all, western countries - yet to see the effects of exponential growth in opium tea consumption.