"Malum Prohibitum"

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ladajo
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by ladajo »

As you noted, doing anything to excess can (and normally does) cause harm. But the difference with drugs (and cigarettes) is the addictive quality verses damage potential quotient.

Cigarettes score lower because it does take more time. But that said, smoking anything is carcinogenic to your lungs, be it crack, pot or tobacco. Although Simon would have us all believe his propanganda that smoking pot is an insta-cure for cancer. Although he has not much to say on the emphysema aspect...

And yes, years of drinking heavily can damage your liver. In fact, drinking heavily can kill you in 2 hours. But you really have you really have to work at it.

Drugs on the other hand, once you start, it becomes much harder sooner to get off the path. The drugs will lead you down a road that on average with in about 5 years will end your life as you know it with little to no chance of reversal. It is a progressive death spiral. Think of it like a tip stall in a P-51 fighter, once you push past your limit, you are in widow maker lane with little chance to get out of it.

Alcohol is not nearly as damaging as fast, nor does it as easily drive the deep judgemental ability reductions and addictiveness that drugs do.

Fundamentally, drugs make you high. Getting high makes your body and mind want it more. More means more often, and as your body desentitizes, the craving remains, but with a more potent source required for perceived effects. Thus begins the death spiral that is not nearly as drastic, fast or effective with alcohol.

Google the photos. Look at the time frames for them. Ask your self which is more dangerous.

Making them available at CVS or Walmart is not going to change anything about the mechanism. In fact, in my opinion, it will only serve as a market entry service for users that will then seek out unregulated means to get past the desensitation factor to get the high they seek. They will either cook up batches at home or seek extra-legal marketers who will continue to make the "good shit" to a probably wider market base. End result, more opportunity for folks to get on the train, and use drugs, and cost goes down. Meanwhile, more folks will now have "free" opportunity to risk the train ride to increasing addiction.

Sounds like the cigarette marketing plan to me. Look how well that turned out. They even went after children.
You think big potential producers are going to miss a chance to market a product that self guarantees future sales due to a physical addiction mechanism?

Your hypthesis about legalization and regulated sales is based in a fallacy that anyone can stop using once they start by free choice. It is also based on another fallacy that once a person starts using, they won't want to seek more potent product to match or better their high. It also does not recognize the fact that using creates addictive physical changes in the brain and body, as well as desensitizes effectiveness. Thus the key point, you need more and stronger doses and you lose the ability to choose not to.

Why do you think there has been steady pressure to increase potency and effectiveness of drugs? Why has it had a market demand?

As I said before, alcohol while having similarities in some respect to drugs, does not equate equally. It is much less damaging over time (you said so yourself), and is self limiting in that it can only get so powerful (100% is 100%) per unit volume.

If anything, make drugs "legal" will while controlling costs, and to some degree (that which is regulated and sold via authorized outlets) will controll content, it will certainly make drugs more available and permissable, and thus I would predict a great shift in the below chart where alcohol already less than half of recorded of 'drug' deaths becomes but a minor stripe, and the drug bands widen greatly.

Do not think or be mislead that this argument is about pot, that is what the propagandists want you to believe. It is a campaign and strategy for legalizing all drugs, and it is about a proven mechanism of addiction providing a means to make money.

Image
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williatw
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by williatw »

ladajo wrote:As you noted, doing anything to excess can (and normally does) cause harm. But the difference with drugs (and cigarettes) is the addictive quality verses damage potential quotient.
Cigarettes score lower because it does take more time. But that said, smoking anything is carcinogenic to your lungs, be it crack, pot or tobacco. Although Simon would have us all believe his propaganda that smoking pot is an insta-cure for cancer. Although he has not much to say on the emphysema aspect...
And yes, years of drinking heavily can damage your liver. In fact, drinking heavily can kill you in 2 hours. But you really have you really have to work at it.
Again those are arguments for not doing drugs, (or smoking or drinking hard liquor) not arguments for prohibition. Few on the side of opposition to the drug war think drugs (even pot) are "harmless", I certainly don't.
ladajo wrote:Drugs on the other hand, once you start, it becomes much harder sooner to get off the path. The drugs will lead you down a road that on average with in about 5 years will end your life as you know it with little to no chance of reversal. It is a progressive death spiral. Think of it like a tip stall in a P-51 fighter, once you push past your limit, you are in widow maker lane with little chance to get out of it.
Alcohol is not nearly as damaging as fast, nor does it as easily drive the deep judgemental ability reductions and addictiveness that drugs do.
Fundamentally, drugs make you high. Getting high makes your body and mind want it more. More means more often, and as your body desentitizes, the craving remains, but with a more potent source required for perceived effects. Thus begins the death spiral that is not nearly as drastic, fast or effective with alcohol.
That is a description of the medical/psychological nature of drug addiction. Arresting addicts throwing them in jail doesn't "help" them and isn't intended to. An 18-yr old minority youth sent to adult prison on drug possession charges, isn't being "helped" by being repeatedly ass-raped and systematically brutalized. Feeding organized crime and insanely profitable enterprise undermines our society in countless ways, far worse than drug addiction does. Drug addiction should be treated like the medical condition it is and treated like such. Treating the addict like a criminal doesn't help the aforementioned by you, only criminalizes the behavior making it that much more difficult for the addict even if he/she has the will to seek help.
ladajo wrote:Making them available at CVS or Walmart is not going to change anything about the mechanism. In fact, in my opinion, it will only serve as a market entry service for users that will then seek out unregulated means to get past the desensitation factor to get the high they seek. They will either cook up batches at home or seek extra-legal marketers who will continue to make the "good shit" to a probably wider market base. End result, more opportunity for folks to get on the train, and use drugs, and cost goes down. Meanwhile, more folks will now have "free" opportunity to risk the train ride to increasing addiction.
Sounds like the cigarette marketing plan to me. Look how well that turned out. They even went after children.
You think big potential producers are going to miss a chance to market a product that self guarantees future sales due to a physical addiction mechanism?
I have got news to you...illegal drugs are "marketed" to kids now. They don't run ads on TV, but drug pushers are ingenious at getting their product into young hands, often by offering "free" samples. People like upper-income coke users have plenty of "opportunities" to get their hands on drugs. Everyone pretty much knows that unless you are very careless the law is far more interested in jailing poor easily convictable minority males, than upper-middle class drug users. It remains to be seen whether legal but strickly regulated as to concentration and impurites sold only by licensed providers would actually increase the market for illegal street drugs.
ladajo wrote:Your hypothesis about legalization and regulated sales is based in a fallacy that anyone can stop using once they start by free choice. It is also based on another fallacy that once a person starts using, they won't want to seek more potent product to match or better their high. It also does not recognize the fact that using creates addictive physical changes in the brain and body, as well as desensitizes effectiveness. Thus the key point, you need more and stronger doses and you lose the ability to choose not to.

Why do you think there has been steady pressure to increase potency and effectiveness of drugs? Why has it had a market demand?

It's not a fallacy based on the ability of people to self-limit, it's based on the failure of prohibition to self-limit. An illegal user can have as much as he/she has the money to pay for, as often as they like, till they kill themselves (or run out of money). Doesn't sound like the WOD is much of a success to me. The steady pressure to increase content is caused by an unregulated illegal market. If Michelob could increase the alcohol content of their beer, (and add whatever other "additives" they saw fit) you would get the same result.


ladajo wrote:If anything, make drugs "legal" will while controlling costs, and to some degree (that which is regulated and sold via authorized outlets) will control content, it will certainly make drugs more available and permissible, and thus I would predict a great shift in the below chart where alcohol already less than half of recorded of 'drug' deaths becomes but a minor stripe, and the drug bands widen greatly.

Will it make drugs more available and permissible? Can't sell except to registered users over 21, for instance by licensed providers who can only sell the amounts/concentrations/etc. allowed by law. Can't see to many elementary kids or HS kids being on the allowed user's list, both of whom have no trouble laying their hands on illicit drugs.

ladajo wrote:Do not think or be misled that this argument is about pot, that is what the propagandists want you to believe. It is a campaign and strategy for legalizing all drugs, and it is about a proven mechanism of addiction providing a means to make money.
Again..really? If I was an illegal seller of any illicit drug would I want it legalized? Sure he/they might believe it might increase usage, but also would greatly increase competition from now legal suppliers selling a much lower concentration (& therefore less addictive) safer product at easily a factor of 10 cheaper.
Last edited by williatw on Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

MSimon
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by MSimon »

But the difference with drugs (and cigarettes) is the addictive quality verses damage potential quotient.
Our biggest trouble is in ascribing the addictiveness to the drugs. But only about 10% who try opiates under any circumstances are interested in continuing the experience. The Navy gave me morphine for surgery. It was a dreamy experience. Why didn't I chase the dragon? Hell if I know for sure. My theory is that I was not in enough pain.

Tobacco is an anti-depressant. I think its "addictiveness" tells you that there are a LOT of depressed people out there.

To ascribe moral qualities to long term depression or pain is to confuse the categories/issues.

That is one of the reasons you can't get kids to fall in line/support the current prohibitions. They are more or less convinced that drug use is a medical and not a spiritual problem. For the same reason interest in religion is dying. Religion is considered irrelevant. The rules no longer match current understanding.

Take the religious proscription on same sex attraction. It is fairly well documented (not all people are convinced) that such behavior is a function of hormones in the womb. It seems stupid to persecute people for their mother's hormones during gestation.

My problem for the last 30 or so years is that I was an early adopter of the "new" ideas. Those ideas are now mainstream and those who were once my opponents on the matter are now having the ground cut from under them. We are in the middle of a transition.

If there was one major mistake I made it was in supporting no fault divorce. I am now squarely against no fault divorce. It is very bad for children. I would only allow it if there are no children involved. I do like (for the most part) the Catholic idea of marriage for life.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by MSimon »

The War On (some) Drugs is the biggest advertisement for the illegal drugs out there. And it is free advertising.

Here is how kids think. "He is willing to go to jail for that stuff? It must be a LOT of fun. Got to get me some and see."

And what do they see re: Pot? "The high is fun. And it is not that dangerous. Maybe they are lying about heroin."

And here are some cops who think ALL drugs should be legal. http://www.leap.cc/ They know the WoD is a mechanism to spread use.

A LEAP office on the difference between line officers vs police chiefs and political leaders (about 2 minutes):
http://youtu.be/t8NKcz2lVL8

LEAP's Peter Christ at the St Albans Rotary - discussing the futility of Prohibition (about 40 minutes):
http://youtu.be/eDCf-Et2_Mc

And then you have the racism of the way the law is enforced on whites vs minorities.

You trouble ladajo is that you and your cohort should have given up the war on pot a decade or two ago. That might have preserved the laws against the other drugs. Now it is all on the table.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

choff
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by choff »

While the photo proves a point, I also agree there's a decorum to observe on what to post, it's better to provide a link to a picture and maybe put in a graphic content warning.

As for the whole drug prohibition/abolition arguement, neither works, it's all a no win either way.
CHoff

ladajo
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by ladajo »

As for the whole drug prohibition/abolition arguement, neither works, it's all a no win either way.
Yes. As I've said many times.

Again, William, your arguments purely rely on the fallacy that users will be happy with what is available via the sanctioned system. Unlike alcohol, where there is no variant, ie.: It is what it is, drugs can be and are rountinely enhanced and cooked to provide more "potent" highs. This is done because the users demand it. At least until they are dead. But that is okay, because, there are plenty behind them.

If you really think that producers are concerned about legalization removing their market you are extremely niave. They champion the cause because they know full well that the more folks that try it, the more customers they get down the road. That is one of the reasons they champion free samples for beginners. Get them hooked, and you have a cash cow until death, and there are plenty more behind them. 7 Billiion opportunities and counted. Of course the other dimension that they gain legitimacy to hide behind is also irrellevant. And they certainly won't take the opportunity to go "legit" and also provide high potent follow ons or advice on concentration techniques under the counter either. WHy that might just increase sales now wouldn't it? That of course would be bad for the profit line.

I aslso dismiss Simon's ridiculous implication about being resistant to Morphine addictino from his experience when the navy gave it to him for surgery. It has absolutely nothing to do with any possibility that the protocol followed was designed do prevent addiction by limiting dosage level and frequency to the minimum required for surgical pain management. And that the protocol was developed following years of mistakes and life disasters for patients before addiction was understood.
It is also beyond him that morphine is still used routinely in hospitals around the world following the same protocols that prevent addiction.

That would undermine his argument. And he can't have that, now can he?

Comparing Drugs with Alcohol is a patently false argument. They do not share the same mechanism or risk levels. Ask yourself how many old alcoholics you know verses old drug addicts? I bet you know more alcoholics. And I also bet it ain't because drug addicts kick the habit. I bet it is because the habit does them in sooner and more viciously than drinking. 100% is 100% no matter how you cut it. Take an ounce of 100% alcohol, and you will live. Take an ounce of pure cocaine or pure THC (if you can find it) and I bet the results are a magnitude more significant if not lethal.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Diogenes
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by Diogenes »

williatw wrote:
ladajo wrote:And if you want to compare between Alcohol and Drug use before and after, just google both. No comparison.
"drug use before and after photos"
and
"alcohol use before and after photos"

You tell me which is worse for you.
What about pictures showing the results of emphysema or advanced stage lung cancer from smoking legal tobacco cigarettes?


Tobacco use is certainly nasty and it does cause all sorts of horrible afflictions. I personally wish the stuff would go away, but the nation has a long history of acceptance of it, and from a principled perspective, the vast majority of the damage occurs only to those who smoke.

It is not AS great of a threat as is crack, or meth, but it's pretty bad. By reason of the fact that it has been long accepted in this nation, I think we have to put up with it. I am of divided mind about efforts to slowly choke it to death with taxation and other public policy initiatives, but should the day come that people give up smoking completely, I think everyone will be better off.






williatw wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zWB4dLYChM

Or Cirrhosis of the liver from years of drinking hard liquor?

Sure you could find images just as ugly, it just generally takes longer. An again those pictures show good reasons not to do meth or crack etc., not really endorsements of our current system of prohibition which allows very high concentration narcotics (often mixed with noxious impurities) in the hands of anyone who wants them and is willing to pay for them, producing your posted results.


But my argument is that the problem would grow exponentially worse with legalization. Again, I point out what happened in China when Opium was legalized. Usage kept accelerating until by 1900 ~ 50% of the adult population was addicted to opium. Then the nation collapsed.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

williatw
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by williatw »

ladajo wrote:
As for the whole drug prohibition/abolition arguement, neither works, it's all a no win either way.
Yes. As I've said many times.

Again, William, your arguments purely rely on the fallacy that users will be happy with what is available via the sanctioned system. Unlike alcohol, where there is no variant, ie.: It is what it is, drugs can be and are rountinely enhanced and cooked to provide more "potent" highs. This is done because the users demand it. At least until they are dead. But that is okay, because, there are plenty behind them.
Users demand that their pot be "doped" with paraquat contamination speed an gods knows what else? The user isn't voluntarily asking for it, the supplier does this to increase addiction in the user involuntarily. If Michelob started secretly doping their beer with Opium, sure sales would sky-rocket, that doesn't mean the unwitting buyer "demanded" it. If beer came from an illegal unregulated source they (the suppliers) would likely have done something like that years ago. That’s the thing, illegal alcohol would very quickly not just be alcohol.

ladajo wrote:If you really think that producers are concerned about legalization removing their market you are extremely niave. They champion the cause because they know full well that the more folks that try it, the more customers they get down the road. That is one of the reasons they champion free samples for beginners. Get them hooked, and you have a cash cow until death, and there are plenty more behind them. 7 Billiion opportunities and counted. Of course the other dimension that they gain legitimacy to hide behind is also irrellevant. And they certainly won't take the opportunity to go "legit" and also provide high potent follow ons or advice on concentration techniques under the counter either. WHy that might just increase sales now wouldn't it? That of course would be bad for the profit line.
A drug user now has no other choice but to buy from an illegal provider of dubious quality. He has no control over whether they choice to juice it up with higher concentration/additives to promote more addiction. Like during prohibition when people died, went blind etc. from wood alcohol or turpentine, or whatever else was placed in the illegal hooch. If you don't know what is in what you’re buying, then you’re not making a voluntary choice. People didn't continue to buy Al Capone's and the other boot-leggars illegal hooch once prohibition was repealed. No supplier wants to do anything to increase his own competition if he can help it. The prohibition gangsters were not able to compete against legal suppliers, people wanted nothing to do with them once they had another legal option to exercise. Instead they looked for other sources of illegal revenue like of course drugs.

ladajo wrote:Comparing Drugs with Alcohol is a patently false argument. They do not share the same mechanism or risk levels. Ask yourself how many old alcoholics you know verses old drug addicts? I bet you know more alcoholics. And I also bet it ain't because drug addicts kick the habit. I bet it is because the habit does them in sooner and more viciously than drinking. 100% is 100% no matter how you cut it. Take an ounce of 100% alcohol, and you will live. Take an ounce of pure cocaine or pure THC (if you can find it) and I bet the results are a magnitude more significant if not lethal.
Which is an argument for not doing heroin/cocaine not an argument for the war on drugs. By your own lethality argument the existing WOD isn't keeping the C or H addicts alive their just killing themselves off with the drugs. So fear of imminent addiction leading to very early death from C or H, didn’t deter those people from becoming users, fear of the law, being caught didn’t, so what exactly then is the point of the WOD? The only thing it seems to accomplish is jailing large no. of social “undesirables”; i.e. young scary-looking minority males.

Diogenes
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by Diogenes »

williatw wrote: Doubt if krokodil in any form would ever be legalized...in any case this unfortunates situation is under our existing prohibition, don't see how it’s an argument for continuing it, or how ending the drug war would affect this one way or another.




But as a matter of principle, you can't stretch the libertarian philosophy that far. People either do, or do not have a "right" to take whatever they want. Simon's no compromise position on the principle of prohibition does not leave you the option of outlawing krokodil. If you accept the argument that it is a right, you have no moral foundation to deny it to people who want it.


Here in this town, there's a group of men called the "Wash gang." Most of them are homeless and Indian, and they drink mouthwash. The stuff is really bad for them, but they drink it because it's cheap. I have little doubt that krokodil usage will find a similar constituency were it legal.



williatw wrote:
Diogenes wrote:Likewise, all the Liberal Democrats who run the media industries absolutely censor pictures of an actual aborted child because they realize instantly that support for their position falls apart when confronted with the visual truth of what they believe.

The media also will not show pictures of Homosexuality being practiced in the usual manner in those places where it holds sway. They will also not show the diseased consequences of it either, and indeed, they carefully manage the presentation of it to the masses.


Under the auspices of banning "offensive speech/imagery". Interesting point hiding the ugly reality from the gullible masses. I remember Clinton saying when they wanted to ban late term abortions (which are legal infanticide IMHO) that well its rare so there is no need to ban it. I recall things like the fetus's head being left inside the womb when they jam I think the tube or whatever inside its skull killing it. They have to leave the head inside because if they pulled it out it would be homicide.



Abortion is a sick and disgusting practice which ought to be illegal except when medically necessary. (And it was before Liberal courts LIED about the 14th amendment. )


williatw wrote:
Diogenes wrote:They will, of course show ugly scenes (dead iraqi children) when it suits THEIR purpose.
When the truth is not your friend, you are on the wrong side of an issue.
But not let us see the results of thousands of abortions being performed which are just as graphic..again interesting point, don't really have a rebuttal to that obviously our esteemed media are serving an agenda.

The media is pretty much composed of College indoctrinated Journalism majors who live in Large Cities such as New York and Los Angeles. They are about 95% Democrat, and many of them are related by blood or marriage to Democrat office holders. The inbreeding between the Media Industry and the Democrat party is so extensive that you would need a program just to keep up with all the players.


The media tightly controls what gets broadcast on the networks regarding abortion. They don't want the public swayed against the practice. They likewise do this on the issue of Homosexuality. They take great pains to control how the image of this particular fetish is broadcast to the public. What they NEVER DO is show what it is really like.

Here is a link to what it is really like in San Fransisco. If this stuff was shown to the public at large, it would provoke an immediate backlash. It never gets on the screen because the media people are trying to get Americans to accept it as normal.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by Diogenes »

choff wrote:While the photo proves a point, I also agree there's a decorum to observe on what to post, it's better to provide a link to a picture and maybe put in a graphic content warning.

As for the whole drug prohibition/abolition arguement, neither works, it's all a no win either way.


Simon argues that banning drugs constitutes a Malum Prohibitum, meaning a law which is based on whim, and which has no moral principle underpinning it.


The photographs demonstrate a degree of harm that instantly confers the knowledge that this stuff isn't banned because of whim, it is banned because it has real and deadly consequences to innocent people.


In an instant, one photograph puts the lie to the allegation that interdiction is a "Malum Prohibitum."
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

williatw
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by williatw »

Diogenes wrote:But my argument is that the problem would grow exponentially worse with legalization. Again, I point out what happened in China when Opium was legalized. Usage kept accelerating until by 1900 ~ 50% of the adult population was addicted to opium. Then the nation collapsed.
Accepted that is was legal in both Britain and the US at the time, and had been for many decades. I agree the possibility of your supposition that it is perhaps that the supply in the latter two countries just wasn't as available, but the facts simply say that it was legal; there is no question that it hadn't produced nearly the level of deleterious effects as it would in China. The undisputed difference is that China was conquered by the British who forced it upon them in an utterly ruthless immoral way just as bad or worse than slavery. There were no regulations, no controls whatsoever, pushed upon them every way they could with no check on them (the sellers) whatsoever. If Mexican drug lords conquered Texas and Oklahoma, drug usage pot and otherwise would probably sky-rocket. They would push it on people (including children) any way they could with no check whatsoever. They would doubtlessly “juice” it up with whatever they could come up with to breed more addicts. That would be more analogous to what happened in China than merely legalizing would be.

williatw
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by williatw »

Diogenes wrote:
williatw wrote: Doubt if krokodil in any form would ever be legalized...in any case this unfortunates situation is under our existing prohibition, don't see how it’s an argument for continuing it, or how ending the drug war would affect this one way or another.
But as a matter of principle, you can't stretch the libertarian philosophy that far. People either do, or do not have a "right" to take whatever they want. Simon's no compromise position on the principle of prohibition does not leave you the option of outlawing krokodil. If you accept the argument that it is a right, you have no moral foundation to deny it to people who want it..
No offense to Msimon, but I can stretch it anyway I want. I am a practical Libertarian (like Gary Johnson). I can say you don't have a right to buy/sell/possess/distribute whatever you want; that is explicit in gov. having the Constitutional right to regulate commerce. For instance I am sure I legally can't sell/distribute/produce live pneumonic plague bacillus available to whomever wants it; don't know if there is actually a law against injecting it. I can thereby side step the issue of whether you have a "right" to take krokodil.
Last edited by williatw on Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Diogenes
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by Diogenes »

williatw wrote:
Diogenes wrote:But my argument is that the problem would grow exponentially worse with legalization. Again, I point out what happened in China when Opium was legalized. Usage kept accelerating until by 1900 ~ 50% of the adult population was addicted to opium. Then the nation collapsed.
Accepted that is was legal in both Britain and the US at the time, and had been for many decades. I agree the possibility of your supposition that it is perhaps that the supply in the latter two countries just wasn't as available, but the facts simply say that it was legal; there is no question that it hadn't produced nearly the level of deleterious effects as it would in China.
In both England and the US, demand was just getting started before it was outlawed. We were at the point China was in 1838. In 60 years, China went from minimal usage, (like our perpetual 2%) to nearly 50% addiction.


williatw wrote: The undisputed difference is that China was conquered by the British who forced it upon them in an utterly ruthless immoral way just as bad or worse than slavery. There were no regulations, no controls whatsoever, pushed upon them every way they could with no check on them (the sellers) whatsoever. If Mexican drug lords conquered Texas and Oklahoma, drug usage pot and otherwise would probably sky-rocket. They would push it on people (including children) any way they could with no check whatsoever. They would doubtlessly “juice” it up with whatever they could come up with to breed more addicts. That would be more analogous to what happened in China than merely legalizing would be.

And do you not think that if it were legal here in this country, that nefarious pushers would use whatever means they could to increase demand? They would circumvent every legal roadblock to achieve this end. Do not doubt it. Pharmaceutical companies could bring their massive research and development laboratories to bear, and produce weapons grade addictive substances.

And they would. H3ll, they push drugs now.



I agree with you about the abuses of the legal system regarding drug convictions, but the fact that someone might get anal raped in prison is not an argument for legalizing drugs. It is an argument for extending the protection of the law to people who are in prison. While we're on the topic, I don't like the concept of Prison in the first place. It is simply a temporary restraint of bad conduct, and does nothing to alleviate the CAUSE of bad conduct.


I would run prisons more like a military boot camp with Prisoners expected to receive education as their primary job. The idea of locking people up so as to temporarily warehouse them is utter folly in my mind.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by Diogenes »

williatw wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
But as a matter of principle, you can't stretch the libertarian philosophy that far. People either do, or do not have a "right" to take whatever they want. Simon's no compromise position on the principle of prohibition does not leave you the option of outlawing krokodil. If you accept the argument that it is a right, you have no moral foundation to deny it to people who want it..
No offense to Msimon, but I can stretch it anyway I want. I am a practical Libertarian (like Gary Johnson). I can say you don't have a right to buy/sell/possess/distribute whatever you want; that is explicit in gov. having the Constitutional right to regulate commerce. For instance I am sure I legally can't sell/distribute/produce live pneumonic plague bacillus available to whomever wants it; don't know if there is actually a law against injecting it. I can thereby side step the issue of whether you have a "right" to take krokodil.


Well okay then. You don't get your libertarian purity badge! :)


The point still remains, if you accept the argument that any sort of "Prohibition" is futile, then by what argument can you support prohibiting one substance while allowing others?


It sounds to me as if you are saying that "prohibition" is not futile, it's just that we have a disagreement about which substances should be on the "prohibited" list. I'm down with that. I personally think Pot isn't terribly bad as compared with meth, or coke, or crack. It tends to make lazy bastards out of the people whom I know that use it, but it's far more benign than are other drugs.

I think it would be a mistake to legalize it, but it wouldn't be a tremendously horrible mistake. It would be more of "geeze, that was just dumb" mistake.


By the same token, I absolutely believe that every effort should be made to keep explosives (or dangerous pathogens) out of the hands of crazies and terrorists, and nuclear material out of the hands of Iran and other Fanatic regimes.


"Prohibitions" (really interdiction) is a necessary principle when relating to certain dangerous substances.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

ladajo
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Re: "Malum Prohibitum"

Post by ladajo »

William,
You now present antoher fallacy in your assessment that users do not seek better highs. You try to blame this on the supplier by his/her nefarious and secretive "juicing of the product" so as to increase addiction.
That in itself is a self made argument that drug use increases drug desire and use. It is the users that seek more. It is not the dealer that makes them.
The drug use drives addiction which in turn causes increased desire for a high that demands more potent drugs to get the same or better effect. Users desensitize but increase in need. This pushes them to find stronger stuff. It is no accident that the "harmless pot" of your hippy grand parents is now consider candy for children. THC levels are constantly rising, and with that increases risk and damage. This is a demand issue. It is the same reason that users mix substances. They want more impact. Their bodies demand it via the addiction. It for instance is rare to find a drug user that does not smoke nor drink.

I would also point our that you need to do some more research on early US drug addictions and what drove the legal policies at the turn of the century.
One amusing bit of research that you may find interesting is the drug culture of Nantucket Island in the days of old. The US was on its path to opium and morphine happiness, but was cut short by sensible folk that had seen what it had done in asia, and was doing in Europe. We got lucky.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

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