Space X to build reusable launch vehicle

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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

TDPerk wrote: Oh good Lord, no! Think about it.

It's one full launch and one empty launch. Like 1.1 or 1.05 launch's worth.

The issue is not whether it can be done, it's whether they can keep the payload fraction they need.
No, it is one launch with a larger ΔV and since the mass ratio is exponential, you soon run out of ability to launch payload.

Given an Isp of about 305/345 sec and a required ΔV of ~7.2km/s;
2 stage mass ratio =~9.6.
Given given the reported lift of and payload masses, this works out to ABOUT 88% fuel, 9% structure and 3% payload (LEO).
Increase the ΔV by a mere 10% and the mass ratio is now ~12.1.
92% fuel, 9% structure and... wait a second... -1% payload?

I doubt the proposed method will need only 10% more ΔV. ICBW.

A reuseable 9Heavy with three stages would be able to launch a useful payload.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

I doubt the proposed method will need only 10% more ΔV. ICBW.
Which would contradict quite a few people that think different. Kistler, NASA, DOD, Gary C Hudson, the guys at Blue Origjn, etc, etc...
I think you are unnecessarily pessimistic and completely seem to disregard the improved efficiency the Falcon9 has already seen and will continue to see. I think that Elon Musk calculated that this improved efficiendy is what can be traded in for reusability rather than slightly larger payload.

TDPerk
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Post by TDPerk »

KitesmanSA, I've been playing with staging and the rocket equation since I was around 8. I am certain you are doing it wrong.
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Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Skipjack wrote:I think that Elon Musk calculated that this improved efficiendy is what can be traded in for reusability rather than slightly larger payload.
Reportedly he only recently started to believe that they could manage (full?) reusability.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Reportedly he only recently started to believe that they could manage (full?) reusability.
Which makes sense in the light of the recent announcements of new engines and improved efficiency, etc.
You gather experience, you find out where you can improve things and where you can put the right leverage.
I think it can work. I am not 100% sure about the second stage, but at least the first stage should be doable. This also seems to be the near term goal for SpaceX.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

TDPerk wrote:KitesmanSA, I've been playing with staging and the rocket equation since I was around 8. I am certain you are doing it wrong.
Entirely possible since I have no real training in it. Why don't you do the numbers. Wikipedia provides many data points re the Falcon 9. What are your numbers?

TDPerk
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Post by TDPerk »

Wikipedia provides many data points re the Falcon 9. What are your numbers?
Since it's clear they are thinking of developing from Falcon 9 technology, why would I assume that's a starting point? Even as a worst case bound?
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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

TDPerk wrote: Since it's clear they are thinking of developing from Falcon 9 technology, why would I assume that's a starting point? Even as a worst case bound?
To prove positively that it is plausible. Make whatever (physically plausible) modifying assumptions (Al-Li alloys, etc.) you wish.

I still suspect they will need some sort of stage zero booster (jettisonable fuel tanks? detachable Falcon 1 derivitives? how bout a ring of peta jets?) to get any appreciable payload to orbit. Of course, ICBW!

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

NBF has more posts on spaceX actual and future plans.

Why Spacex Abandoned Parachuting into Water for Reusable Rockets:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/09/why-sp ... -into.html

Game Changing SpaceX Falcon Heavy Booster will be Thirty times cheaper than the space shuttle:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/09/game-c ... heavy.html

kunkmiester
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Post by kunkmiester »

The last comment on NBF got me thinking--how much of the stage really needs to be recovered? If the engines themselves are 60% of the cost, then just recovering them would save you massive amounts. Not sure if that would be easier, but might be better than trying to recover the whole thing.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

You should calculate from Falcon 9 Block 3, which will have 50% more payload to LEO (15 tons). I just saw the numbers for that earlier and those 5 tons extra could make a world of a difference, especially since the Dragon capsule is not that heavy and Falcon 9 does have lots of savety margins on top of that.
I guess that if they need to use the margins due to a failure of some sort, they will simply write that stage off as a loss and dump it into the ocean. If they dont have to use them, then they do already have some extra fuel left in the tanks. Add in the 5 tons of extra payload and trade them for reusability and you might actually get somewhere. I think that at least first stage reuse does move into the area of being quite possible with that. I am not so sure about the second stage, but the first stage is the more expensive part anyway (with 9 Merlin engines and lots of structure).
The second stage only a has a single engine and less materials. So the loss of that would be more acceptable. From what I see SpaceX planing for the next few years, it seems that they will first try only reusing the first stage and then the second stage.
The last comment on NBF got me thinking--how much of the stage really needs to be recovered? If the engines themselves are 60% of the cost, then just recovering them would save you massive amounts. Not sure if that would be easier, but might be better than trying to recover the whole thing.
I think that Musk also wants to reduce turn arround time. If you can just take the first stage as it is and add a new stack on top, then fly again a few days later, that does make a difference. I also want to point out that Musk is always thinking in the long term. He wants to colonize other planets. You need cheap and responsive access to space for that.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

How do you turn the engines around in a "few days"? The shuttle engine turnarounds were certainly longer than a "few days", and that does not even consider the test burns at Stennis between flights.

kunkmiester
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Post by kunkmiester »

I was just thinking you set the engines up to reenter. They'd be in pods of their own, and might even be able to survive a parachute drop on land somewhere. You recover the most expensive parts of your engineering and lose the rest.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

How do you turn the engines around in a "few days"? The shuttle engine turnarounds were certainly longer than a "few days", and that does not even consider the test burns at Stennis between flights.
By not operating them 10% above design specs?
You dont have to take apart and inspect the engines of an airliner after ever flight, do you?
The Merlin engines were designed to be reusable and I am sure that times for testing and inspections will reduce gradually once they have more experience with reusing them. Some RLV- designs aimed for flying several times a days. The suborbital TLVs like the ones by Xcor are supposed to fly several times a day. So I can totally see a flghit rate that is only limited by the time it takes to reintegrate the stack... after SpaceX has had enough time to get a routine and understand the problems, work out the kinks etc.
That will take a few years, I am sure, but it will happen (provided they manage to achieve reusability with sufficient payload).

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

I wonder if the secret sauce for first stage RTLS is deployable membrane wings, a la draco lizard:

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