The Silent War
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GIThruster
- Posts: 4686
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: The Silent War
Do you have any evidence that big businesses sell secrets? If I understand you that's quite a claim. It's politicians who sell secrets. Like when Clinton gave China 50 years of rocket science for the sake of something like $40 million (anyone recall how much?) in donations to the DNC. Private industry could never get away with stuff like that.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
Re: The Silent War
From 'The Best Enemy Money Can Buy" by Antony C. Sutton,
“MIRV capability is the ability to deploy a number of warheads from the same missile, thus vastly increasing throw weight. Soviet third generation missiles did not have this capability. As stated by a Department of Defense report: "... it was not until the fourth generation that the technology became available to the Soviets allowing greater throw weight and greatly improved accuracy so that high yield MIRVs could be carried by operational missiles". The phrase "became available" is a subtle way for DOD to state what has been concealed from the public: that the U.S. made the technology available (as we shall show below). The fourth generation ICBMs are the SS-17, the SS-18 and the SS-19, which today have the capability to destroy most of our 1,000 U.S. Minuteman missiles now operational with only a portion of their warheads.”
Minuteman III MIRV path
“The technological roadblock was mass production of miniaturised precision ball bearings for guidance systems. In the early 1960s Soviets attempted to buy U.S. technology for mass production of miniaturised precision bearings. The technology was denied. However, in 1972 the necessary grinders were sold by Bryant Chucking Grinder Company and its products are today used in Soviet guided missile systems and gyroscopes. Specifically, the Soviets were then able to MIRY their missiles and increase their accuracy.”
“Ball bearings are an integral part of weapons systems, there is no substitute. The entire ball bearing production capability of the Soviet Union is of Western origin – utilizing equipment from the United States, Sweden, Germany, and Italy. This transfer has been fully documented elsewhere by this author (see Bibliography). All Soviet tanks and military vehicles run on bearings manufactured on Western equipment or copies of Western equipment. All Soviet missiles and related systems including guidance systems have bearings manufactured on Western equipment or Soviet duplicates of this equipment… By 1974 the Soviets had MIRVed their missiles and were in mass production.”
“MIRV capability is the ability to deploy a number of warheads from the same missile, thus vastly increasing throw weight. Soviet third generation missiles did not have this capability. As stated by a Department of Defense report: "... it was not until the fourth generation that the technology became available to the Soviets allowing greater throw weight and greatly improved accuracy so that high yield MIRVs could be carried by operational missiles". The phrase "became available" is a subtle way for DOD to state what has been concealed from the public: that the U.S. made the technology available (as we shall show below). The fourth generation ICBMs are the SS-17, the SS-18 and the SS-19, which today have the capability to destroy most of our 1,000 U.S. Minuteman missiles now operational with only a portion of their warheads.”
Minuteman III MIRV path
“The technological roadblock was mass production of miniaturised precision ball bearings for guidance systems. In the early 1960s Soviets attempted to buy U.S. technology for mass production of miniaturised precision bearings. The technology was denied. However, in 1972 the necessary grinders were sold by Bryant Chucking Grinder Company and its products are today used in Soviet guided missile systems and gyroscopes. Specifically, the Soviets were then able to MIRY their missiles and increase their accuracy.”
“Ball bearings are an integral part of weapons systems, there is no substitute. The entire ball bearing production capability of the Soviet Union is of Western origin – utilizing equipment from the United States, Sweden, Germany, and Italy. This transfer has been fully documented elsewhere by this author (see Bibliography). All Soviet tanks and military vehicles run on bearings manufactured on Western equipment or copies of Western equipment. All Soviet missiles and related systems including guidance systems have bearings manufactured on Western equipment or Soviet duplicates of this equipment… By 1974 the Soviets had MIRVed their missiles and were in mass production.”
CHoff
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palladin9479
- Posts: 388
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am
Re: The Silent War
We should immediately make all ball bearings illegal. Shot on sight anyone who discusses building a device utilizing a ball bearing...
Yeah.....
What your talking about is known as technology transfer, which is highly controlled. Certain categories of technology are restricted and transfer of them to a foreign national is prohibited. Now this being said, it is impossible to prevent another country from eventually scrapping together enough pieces of put the puzzle together.
That the Russian example above, essentially Russia already had MIRV launcher technology. They could build it and deploy it but they lacked the manufacturing technology to do so efficiently on at scale. They eventually acquired the manufacturing technology to allow them to create MIRV at scale, they didn't acquire MIRV technology as they already had it.
China did the same thing, their manufacturing technology took off after they enticed foreign investments to come over and build factories loaded with cheap technology. The Chinese firms took apart everything and learned how to create this themselves. Their still severely lacking in the more expensive manufacturing arena's, notably microprocessors and medical. You'll never see Intel building one of their multibillion USD plants with their newest technology (14nm production) in China. Instead they built one with their older 65nm technology, as 65nm is already common across the globe there is no risk of the Chinese stealing it.
Yeah.....
What your talking about is known as technology transfer, which is highly controlled. Certain categories of technology are restricted and transfer of them to a foreign national is prohibited. Now this being said, it is impossible to prevent another country from eventually scrapping together enough pieces of put the puzzle together.
That the Russian example above, essentially Russia already had MIRV launcher technology. They could build it and deploy it but they lacked the manufacturing technology to do so efficiently on at scale. They eventually acquired the manufacturing technology to allow them to create MIRV at scale, they didn't acquire MIRV technology as they already had it.
China did the same thing, their manufacturing technology took off after they enticed foreign investments to come over and build factories loaded with cheap technology. The Chinese firms took apart everything and learned how to create this themselves. Their still severely lacking in the more expensive manufacturing arena's, notably microprocessors and medical. You'll never see Intel building one of their multibillion USD plants with their newest technology (14nm production) in China. Instead they built one with their older 65nm technology, as 65nm is already common across the globe there is no risk of the Chinese stealing it.
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GIThruster
- Posts: 4686
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm
Re: The Silent War
I guess I see 2 issues, choff. First is we need to know what is the ITAR status of precision ball bearings. While it is possible they are indispensible in building MIRV's, I certainly would not assume this. How to they relate to the protected technologies list?
Second is, there is a huge leap between building ball bearings and building MIRV's. The author is equating these and this is just silly. This sounds like Larry Springer logic to me. Even if you were to find that precision ball bearings were indispensible to MIRV construction, and even if you were to find precision ball bearings were only obtainable through American technology and by breaking ITAR, you're a long, long way from the claim that American provided MIRV's to the Soviets.
Second is, there is a huge leap between building ball bearings and building MIRV's. The author is equating these and this is just silly. This sounds like Larry Springer logic to me. Even if you were to find that precision ball bearings were indispensible to MIRV construction, and even if you were to find precision ball bearings were only obtainable through American technology and by breaking ITAR, you're a long, long way from the claim that American provided MIRV's to the Soviets.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
Re: The Silent War
In the 1970s precision ball bearings might have been needed for precision inertial guidance systems. I suspect today there are better gyroscopes based on fluidic bearings or laser ring interferometers. On top of which, today we have computers which can take multiple navigation inputs to correct for imprecision of the inertial platform.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.
Re: The Silent War
I would highly recommend reading Suttons online books, I was only quoting one typical example. If you read the section on the Soviet effort in support of N. Vietnam it was indirectly financed by the US taxpayer, trucks with copies of Ford engines and tractors pulling artillery on the Ho Chi Min trail amoung other tidbits. But mainly Wall St. was indispensible to the Bolshevik revolution and Nazi effort in the first place, so much so that the great depression in part could be attributed to the transfer of money and resources from the US to Germany and Russia around 1930's.
CHoff
Re: The Silent War
U.S. Sharpens Tone on Cyber Attacks From China
Verizon, the telecommunications company that handles a large percentage of the country’s Internet traffic, has noticed a shift in the types of attacks hitting the U.S. In its 2013 Data Breach Investigation Report, due to be released later this spring, the company will report that infrastructure is now suffering the brunt of the attacks on the network, said Bryan Sartin, director of investigative response for Verizon.
“These aren’t about stealing data and fraud, they’re about deny, disrupt and destroy,” Sartin said. “I’d go so far as to say that it’s [coming from a] nation state, but almost every victim is critical infrastructure.”
Sartin did not name China, but said five out of six notifications to clients are now focused on attacks to critical infrastructure. Other experts said the nation that leads the way on these types of attacks is China.
This transition from what might more appropriately be named cyber espionage to critical infrastructure attack creates a new environment and may be the cause of the escalated rhetoric from U.S. national security officials.
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GIThruster
- Posts: 4686
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm
Re:
The problem comes when a large group is working on a single, classified project and project managers, their managers and their managers managers want instant, continuing access. Too, it's important to note that most classified work happens in private business and is relatively secure. When DoD classifes a project, they then have responsibility to provide security. It is in civilian agencies like NASA, filled with scientists who generally want open access to science, that we have the biggest problems. That's why this stuff with the Chinese sending moles to NASA is a real issue, because NASA doesn't use the same security protocols as DoD or private industry.ScottL wrote:Ding Ding! Choff is the winner. I really don't get why others don't understand these fundamental concepts. Classified information should be stored in isolated network systems running some form of GP (Group Policy) through their domain.
Security at NASA is a big issue. I understand why Skippy hates Wolf, but he may be our best bulldog right now.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
Re: The Silent War
What is China's biggest problem? It is not the US. It is their own citizens. And their mismanagement of their economy. Stealing defense secrets will not fix any of that. In fact it may distract them.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Re: The Silent War
Agreed. That's why they are moving to the next phase.MSimon wrote:What is China's biggest problem? It is not the US. It is their own citizens. And their mismanagement of their economy. Stealing defense secrets will not fix any of that. In fact it may distract them.
It seems like the Chinese leadership is trying to provoke a cyber-war. The old Communist strategy of suppressing internal dissent by making an external enemy. It's an old Capitalist strategy too, I suppose... Politicians.This transition from what might more appropriately be named cyber espionage to critical infrastructure attack creates a new environment...