Population Control Solves Alot of Problems

[TallDave]

Hunter-gatherers have more free time than any other society on earth.

So do the homeless. They enjoy similar quality of life.

[Skipjack]

Exactly, as Mr Tall and Mr Simon say
I find that article that you posted amusing, btw.
As I mentioned earlier, in a society of hunter gaterers, I would not have survived beyond toddler age.
I dont know anyone in my country that is starving.

[alexjrgreen]

The murder rate in such societies was rather high IIRC.

Compared to where? Detroit?

And then there is maintaining your range in the face of other bands who would like your high productivity area.

Hunter-gatherers mostly avoided each other. Until we took their land...

Lots of free time. Short life.

Most humans had a short life until very recently. Hunter-gatherers did better than many.

[alexjrgreen]

Hunter-gatherers have more free time than any other society on earth.

So do the homeless. They enjoy similar quality of life.

Untrue. Do some research...

[Skipjack]

We started cultivating farm animals and plants, because there were not enough otherwise to hunt and gather and because hunting fast and small game like small deer was to hard. Why run after something if you can just have it caged in?
And again, who is going to treat your illnesses when everyone is out hunting and gathering? The doctors nowadays dont have time to go hunting and gathering. They are more than busy with patients. So they would starve to death or something? Besides they would not have scalpels and medication, because the people doing all these things are also out hunting and gathering.

People never lived that long and that healthily before. Even the fat (excuse me I should say "obese") americans are comparably healthy.
Anyone who says different is a lier.

[alexjrgreen]

We started cultivating farm animals and plants, because there were not enough otherwise to hunt and gather and because hunting fast and small game like small deer was to hard. Why run after something if you can just have it caged in?

I thought you were younger than that...

And again, who is going to treat your illnesses when everyone is out hunting and gathering?

Hunter-gatherers are pretty good at medicating themselves using local plants. They usually have medicine-men of some kind for more serious issues.

The doctors nowadays dont have time to go hunting and gathering. They are more than busy with patients. So they would starve to death or something? Besides they would not have scalpels and medication, because the people doing all these things are also out hunting and gathering.

Now you're getting somewhere. Agriculture supports a stratified society where everyone has a specific job. Hunter-gatherers manage perfectly well on small jobs, like working a metal spear head.

People never lived that long and that healthily before.

Clean water is to blame, apparently.

[Luzr]

The murder rate in such societies was rather high IIRC.

Compared to where? Detroit?

And then there is maintaining your range in the face of other bands who would like your high productivity area.

Hunter-gatherers mostly avoided each other. Until we took their land...

Untrue. Do some research. In most primitive groups, small scale war conflicts are standard and as much as 20% of population dies violently.

[Skipjack]

I thought you were younger than that...

I said "we" as in "us homo sapiens". It might be the language barrier, but I dont find anything wrong with saying it that way.

Hunter-gatherers are pretty good at medicating themselves using local plants. They usually have medicine-men of some kind for more serious issues.

I guess they take care of these illnesses by drilling holes into peoples skulls to let the evil spirits out. ROFL.
Modern medicine requires certain tools. You can not practice it without it and you will die younger without it, period.
Also, again. I wear glasses, I would not be able to live in a hunter gatherer society. There are no herbs to cure near sightedness and some ancient ritual wont cure it either.
Lets take another very simple thing that everyone can relate to: Dental hygiene. In a hunter gatherer society there would not be any toothpaste, no toothbrushes and no dentist either.
I guess you will just take a bath in the nearest lake, because you wont have a bathtub (it is to bulky to take with you when you nomad arround following the animal- herds). That means very cold baths in winter, or no baths at all (yuck).
Even if you had a bathtub, you would only be taking cold baths, because you would most likely not have anything to heat water in. Maybe you would manage to make a couldron somehow, in the "lots of free time" that you have between hunting and gathering, but I doubt that. Do you even know how to do that? Even in theory?

Further, said medicine men usually have a special status among the tribe. They most likely dont go hunting and gathering, because they are to important...

Now you're getting somewhere. Agriculture supports a stratified society where everyone has a specific job. Hunter-gatherers manage perfectly well on small jobs, like working a metal spear head.

That might be favorable, because not everyone is equally talented for everything. Ever thought of that? We are, after all individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses. These strengths and weaknesses are to a major extent genetically predetermined. You can make up for genetic flaws by trying a lot harder than someone else, but why do that, if you excell him at something else?
E.g. if you excell at making spear heads and prefer doing that over going hunting and gathering because you suck at it, why should you not be the one making all the spearheads for the other guys?
And ooops, there we are again.

Clean water is to blame, apparently.

Yeah and all of modern medicine is completely pointless?
Hillarious!

Untrue. Do some research. In most primitive groups, small scale war conflicts are standard and as much as 20% of population dies violently.

True. Native american tribes were constantly at war with each other. The romantic version of the "peaceful savage" is an invention of the 20th century.

[alexjrgreen]

Untrue. Do some research. In most primitive groups, small scale war conflicts are standard and as much as 20% of population dies violently.

Perhaps you should have taken your own advice...

Violence is the major cause of death among the precontact Ache (55% of all deaths) and very important among the Hiwi (30% of all deaths), but notably less important in the two African societies and the Agta (3-7% of all deaths). Indeed, the crude homicide/warfare death rates per year lived are more than ten times higher among the Hiwi and Ache than among the Hadza or !Kung (1/100 and 1/200 per year for precontact Hiwi and Ache, respectively, vs. 1/2500 and 1/3000 for the Hadza and !Kung, respectively). Blurton Jones et al. (2002) suggested that this may be due to the more pervasive effects of colonial governments in Africa and the reduction of intertribal warfare. Even so, within-group homicide and infanticide rates are also much lower among African foragers, suggesting real cultural differences in violence rates."

Hill K, Hurtado AM, Walker RS. 2007. High adult mortality among Hiwi hunter-gatherers: implications for human evolution. J Hum Evol 52:443-454.

[TallDave]

Hunter-gatherers have more free time than any other society on earth.

So do the homeless. They enjoy similar quality of life.

Untrue. Do some research...

Well, OK, homeless probably do considerably better considering their access to sanitation, antibiotics, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, etc.

In fact, given that Western peoples have 15-20 years of leisure at beginning and end of our much longer lives, even those of us that work almost certainly accumulate more leisure by the end.

This probably explains why so few people are moving into the woods to become hunter-gatherers.

Hunter-gatherers manage perfectly well on small jobs, like working a metal spear head.

How the hell does a hunter-gatherer make a metal spearhead? That requires mining and smelting.

Hunter-gatherers are pretty good at medicating themselves using local plants. They usually have medicine-men of some kind for more serious issues.

Does the medicine man manufacture vaccines?

Hill K, Hurtado AM, Walker RS. 2007. High adult mortality among Hiwi hunter-gatherers: implications for human evolution. J Hum Evol 52:443-454.

It looks like we have a couple really violent hunter-gatherer societies, and a couple relatively peaceful ones. I'm not sure that really supports your point very well. Also, 1/3000 is still more violent than almost any country in the world, so even the peaceful tribe is horrifically violent by our standards.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

[alexjrgreen]

I guess they take care of these illnesses by drilling holes into peoples skulls to let the evil spirits out. ROFL.
Modern medicine requires certain tools. You can not practice it without it and you will die younger without it, period.

Your ignorance of native medicine is impressive. Most medical tools date back to the Egyptians. Some are older.

Also, again. I wear glasses, I would not be able to live in a hunter gatherer society. There are no herbs to cure near sightedness and some ancient ritual wont cure it either.

Short-sightedness is mostly caused by living indoors. Hunter-gatherers are much less likely to suffer from it.

Lets take another very simple thing that everyone can relate to: Dental hygiene. In a hunter gatherer society there would not be any toothpaste, no toothbrushes and no dentist either.

There are common plants that serve as toothpaste and toothbrushes. Hunter-gatherers tend not to eat refined sugar, so have less need of a dentist.

I guess you will just take a bath in the nearest lake, because you wont have a bathtub (it is to bulky to take with you when you nomad arround following the animal- herds). That means very cold baths in winter, or no baths at all (yuck).
Even if you had a bathtub, you would only be taking cold baths, because you would most likely not have anything to heat water in. Maybe you would manage to make a couldron somehow, in the "lots of free time" that you have between hunting and gathering, but I doubt that. Do you even know how to do that? Even in theory?

Hunter-gatherers mostly don't share our addiction to hot water.

Further, said medicine men usually have a special status among the tribe. They most likely dont go hunting and gathering, because they are to important...

They tend to range very widely gathering medicinal plants, so much of the time they do their own hunting and food gathering.

Now you're getting somewhere. Agriculture supports a stratified society where everyone has a specific job. Hunter-gatherers manage perfectly well on small jobs, like working a metal spear head.

That might be favorable, because not everyone is equally talented for everything. Ever thought of that? We are, after all individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses. These strengths and weaknesses are to a major extent genetically predetermined. You can make up for genetic flaws by trying a lot harder than someone else, but why do that, if you excell him at something else?
E.g. if you excell at making spear heads and prefer doing that over going hunting and gathering because you suck at it, why should you not be the one making all the spearheads for the other guys?
And ooops, there we are again.

Hunter-gatherers mostly do what they feel like doing, so if they like making spear points they'll do that when the mood takes them. Ownership doesn't feature strongly in hunter-gatherer societies, so things are generally shared.

Clean water is to blame, apparently.

Yeah and all of modern medicine is completely pointless?
Hillarious!

Modern medicine has very little to do with increased life expectancy. Other threads have covered this already.

Untrue. Do some research. In most primitive groups, small scale war conflicts are standard and as much as 20% of population dies violently.

True. Native american tribes were constantly at war with each other. The romantic version of the "peaceful savage" is an invention of the 20th century.

See Hill K, Hurtado AM, Walker RS. 2007. High adult mortality among Hiwi hunter-gatherers: implications for human evolution. J Hum Evol 52:443-454.

Mortality rates vary by culture. Over half of hunter-gatherer societies have moderately low mortality rates due to violence.

[alexjrgreen]

Hunter-gatherers manage perfectly well on small jobs, like working a metal spear head.

How the hell does a hunter-gatherer make a metal spearhead? That requires mining and smelting.

They were the first miners and are quite capable of small to medium scale smelting. Nowadays they mostly trade.

Hunter-gatherers are pretty good at medicating themselves using local plants. They usually have medicine-men of some kind for more serious issues.

Does the medicine man manufacture vaccines?

Their medicine is different from ours, not inferior. So we are better at some things and they are better at others. Which is why big pharma has beaten a path to their door.

Hill K, Hurtado AM, Walker RS. 2007. High adult mortality among Hiwi hunter-gatherers: implications for human evolution. J Hum Evol 52:443-454.

It looks like we have a couple really violent hunter-gatherer societies, and a couple relatively peaceful ones. I'm not sure that really supports your point very well. Also, 1/3000 is still more violent than almost any country in the world, so even the peaceful tribe is horrifically violent by our standards.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

Wrong list.

1/3000 is 33 per 100,000, which is less than Detroit (40 per 100,000) and New Orleans (67 per 100,000 if you believe the New Orleans Police Department or 95 per 100,000 if you believe the FBI).

[Luzr]

Does the medicine man manufacture vaccines?

Their medicine is different from ours, not inferior. So we are better at some things and they are better at others. Which is why big pharma has beaten a path to their door.

Can they cure tuberculosis? Lepra?

Somehow I suspect you are not really serious. Is this some attempt at joke?

It looks like we have a couple really violent hunter-gatherer societies, and a couple relatively peaceful ones. I'm not sure that really supports your point very well. Also, 1/3000 is still more violent than almost any country in the world, so even the peaceful tribe is horrifically violent by our standards.

1/3000 is 33 per 100,000, which is less than Detroit (40 per 100,000) and New Orleans (67 per 100,000 if you believe the New Orleans Police Department or 95 per 100,000 if you believe the FBI).

I guess there was a little miscalculation. You have quoted 3% as minimum number - that is 300 per 100000. 3 times more than worst U.S. number, which is one of highest in the civilised world (you can also say there are violent cities and peaceful ones in civilised world).

[Skipjack]

Your ignorance of native medicine is impressive. Most medical tools date back to the Egyptians. Some are older.

What? What have you been smoking?
Ultrasound, CT, MRI, autoclave (for sterilization, you know), endoscope, excimer laser, gamma knife, gas chromatograph, microscope, petry dish, cultivator, centrifuge...
The existance of microbes and how they cause illnesses has not been discovered until comparably recently.
Sterilization, vaccines, antibiotics, all that. How can YOU be so ignorant?

Short-sightedness is mostly caused by living indoors. Hunter-gatherers are much less likely to suffer from it.

Wrong! Near sightedness is a genetic desease (degeneration). It became more and more wide spread when modern technology provided a good enough cure so people suffering from it would not die prematurely. Living indoors wont cause your eye balls to grow to long!
Hunter gatherers that are near sighted will die before producing offspring. That is why it is less common there. There are cases of blindness among some african tribes though.

Their medicine is different from ours, not inferior. So we are better at some things and they are better at others.

Again, what? What are they better at? Tell me anything! This is hillarious!

There are common plants that serve as toothpaste and toothbrushes. Hunter-gatherers tend not to eat refined sugar, so have less need of a dentist.

Name a plant that serves as a toothbrush please.
I agree on the sugar, though. Still they are not famous for having perfect teeth.

They tend to range very widely gathering medicinal plants, so much of the time they do their own hunting and food gathering.

You have a great fantasy.

Hunter-gatherers mostly do what they feel like doing, so if they like making spear points they'll do that when the mood takes them. Ownership doesn't feature strongly in hunter-gatherer societies, so things are generally shared.

Again, fantasy!
Read some Eibl- Eibesfeldt!
Most basic behavioral traits are identical among all cultures. That includes individualism, ranks and rank- struggles, ownership, even wars.

Modern medicine has very little to do with increased life expectancy. Other threads have covered this already.

Again, where do you get these ideas from! People live much, much longer nowadays than they did even a few decades ago. 200 years ago even rich people would die much younger than even the poorest of people do today.
Just look at the famous people in history and how long they lived and what they died of. There is plenty of historic material on that.

It is amazing for me to see how quickly people loose all perspective on things. Within a few decades all the suffering that was before is forgotten.
I just cant believe that!

[alexjrgreen]

Can they cure tuberculosis? Lepra?

Somehow I suspect you are not really serious. Is this some attempt at joke?

That depends on the local plants.

See, for example DOES TRADITIONAL MEDICINE USE HAMPER EFFORTS AT TUBERCULOSIS CONTROL IN URBAN PERU? where the local medicine appears to have some value.

It looks like we have a couple really violent hunter-gatherer societies, and a couple relatively peaceful ones. I'm not sure that really supports your point very well. Also, 1/3000 is still more violent than almost any country in the world, so even the peaceful tribe is horrifically violent by our standards.

1/3000 is 33 per 100,000, which is less than Detroit (40 per 100,000) and New Orleans (67 per 100,000 if you believe the New Orleans Police Department or 95 per 100,000 if you believe the FBI).

I guess there was a little miscalculation. You have quoted 3% as minimum number - that is 300 per 100000. 3 times more than worst U.S. number, which is one of highest in the civilised world (you can also say there are violent cities and peaceful ones in civilised world).

You're a bit confused by the statistics.

For comparison, in 2006 diabetes was listed as the cause of death for 3% of Americans, whereas the annual diabetes death rate was 24.2 per 100,000.

Deaths: Final Data for 2006 Table B