Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality.

[williatw]

I admit, having experienced death myself, I am not too eager to eperience it again. It is the end.
I also want to add that there cant be anything worse than being executed for something that someone else did, whether there is a hell or not.
Also even the worst criminal can go to heaven all sins forgiven, if he only repents before his death and "returns to god". So I dont see how religion would people less prone to commit crimes...

I assume you mean you had a near-death experience?

[GIThruster]

I dont see how religion would people less prone to commit crimes...

Neither do I. I haven't heard much on the subject of religious people committing fewer crimes. I think that's another caricature. You know, these stereotypes endure. The one that amazes me the most is that knights on crusade were trying to get people to covert. I had to read over 3,000 pages on the crusades from noteworthy sources for a single class once, and never did I ever read that anyone was trying to convert anyone.

I will own though, that there is one story that might be the origin of this particular misconception.. When Emperor Charlemagne was solidifying his sovereignty over what became the Holy Roman Empire, he was forced to fight Widukind none less than 6 times. Each time Charlemagne was victorious and accepted Widukind's surrender. On each of the 6 occassions, Widukind's Saxons had been raiding small villages and hamlets in the Empire, so Chuckles the Great rode out to put an end to all the raping and pillaging. On each occasion, Widukind promised to stop what he was doing and was released. All but the 6th. On the last occasion, Chuckles had had enough. He said "listen man, I can't let you go again. You've killed thousands of people. Every time we do this, you promise to stop and go right back to the same behavior. The only way I can release you is if you convert and become a Christian so I can trust you."

Widukind laughed in his face and called Charlemagne an idiot for ever trusting him even once. He declared he would never become a follower of the weak and pathetic God of forgiveness. So Charlemagne did what he had to and lopped off Widukind's head.

Kinda sheds some light on religiosity and forgiveness. . .

[GIThruster]

I assume you mean you had a near-death experience?

It's interesting that just a few years after several scientific studies were published about the common experiences of people brought back from death, that some folks decided they needed to stipulate a new category as "near death". Until the books, when a person's heart stopped, or alternatively when all brain function ceased, we called them "dead". Suddenly, with folks who are dead both heart and brain, we have to call them "near death" because someone wants to complain about what they routinely find?

And yeah I know, only about 20% actually report the same experience, but that is an amazing number, and the stupid explanation for it about the brain swelling is really, well. . .stupid.

Certainly if I had had a NDE, I would read up on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh= ... 1362012956

and too just saying, I have had an NDE. I was 9 years old and my entire life flashed before my eyes. I didn't die, so that was a "Near Death Experience". When you die and come back, that's really a "Death Experience".

[Skipjack]

No, I had a death experience. My heart stopped. I was reanimated and defibrilated. I was in an induced coma and on ice for 3 days.
I dont think that you can get much "deader" and come back without damage.
What did I experience:
I did not even notice that I was about to die. It was instantaneous as if someone had flipped a switch. There was no light, no tunnel, no out of body experience. Just nothing. Coming back was just as instaneous. I was gone and then I was back. For me no time had passed.

[williatw]

I assume you mean you had a near-death experience?

It's interesting that just a few years after several scientific studies were published about the common experiences of people brought back from death, that some folks decided they needed to stipulate a new category as "near death". Until the books, when a person's heart stopped, or alternatively when all brain function ceased, we called them "dead". Suddenly, with folks who are dead both heart and brain, we have to call them "near death" because someone wants to complain about what they routinely find?

And yeah I know, only about 20% actually report the same experience, but that is an amazing number, and the stupid explanation for it about the brain swelling is really, well. . .stupid.

Certainly if I had had a NDE, I would read up on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh= ... 1362012956

and too just saying, I have had an NDE. I was 9 years old and my entire life flashed before my eyes. I didn't die, so that was a "Near Death Experience". When you die and come back, that's really a "Death Experience".

Most people don't report anything at all after a NDE, that is no recollection. Some people report afterlife experiences where they meet deceased love ones or God/Jesus(even non-christians have it). A small subset reportedly have unpleasant experiences. A somewhat famous example being the experience of the atheist Howard Storm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Storm_(author)

Given the level of detail often recalled, far more so than in most dreams (where the brain is fully oxygenated & quite electrically active) I don't find the explanation of a dying oxygen deprived flat lining brain hallucinating it very convincing.

[GIThruster]

That's what my religious expectations would predict for an atheist. I think we get what we deserve or better, what we expect.

Nothing against Skippy who is just one of a number of atheists I consider "sterner stuff". I date atheists. It's not like I hate them. Now we just need to get Skippy into the clan of those who will endure for eternity.

[Skipjack]

That's what my religious expectations would predict for an atheist. I think we get what we deserve or better, what we expect.

Nothing against Skippy who is just one of a number of atheists I consider "sterner stuff". I date atheists. It's not like I hate them. Now we just need to get Skippy into the clan of those who will endure for eternity.

What if I told you that I was not an atheist before that experience?

[GIThruster]

Wouldn't matter. Faith is a moral decision. You have it or you don't.

[Skipjack]

Wouldn't matter. Faith is a moral decision. You have it or you don't.

No, I meant in regards to your rationalization that atheists see nothing because they are atheist. If I was not an atheist at the time of the event, how come I did not see anything?
You are trying to find an explanation for the facts that fits your world view.

[GIThruster]

You're assuming a host of issues you have no right to. I never thought, said or implied that all people who expect to see and afterlife see one when they die.

Rather, I said there is this significant common denominator that more than 20% see this bright light, etc. I didn't draw ANY conclusions from this but merely noted this significant finding.

If you want to perish when your body dies, so go ahead and perish! If that's your choice, who's to quibble?

If on the other hand you think humanity is made of something more special than the garbage we throw out each day, then get a clue and look at the evidence of what those who have died and come back have to say.

We're not garbage. We're more special than that.

If you want to believe you're just garbage, I promise not to argue with you.

[williatw]

Wouldn't matter. Faith is a moral decision. You have it or you don't.

No, I meant in regards to your rationalization that atheists see nothing because they are atheist. If I was not an atheist at the time of the event, how come I did not see anything?
You are trying to find an explanation for the facts that fits your world view.

AWARE Study Update January 2013


The AWARE study which was started in 2008 is a long-term project that aims to study the relationship between mind consciousness and brain in patients who undergo cardiac arrest and clinical death.

http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279

[MSimon]

As to faith. That is only needed by people without experience. I feel sorry for them. Why?

Because they are easily led.

It is my experience that the head office talks to each and every one of us. The trouble is that we have so much racket going on internally that we are unable to hear. Anger mostly. Amplified by hate.

The only Christian teacher who gets it is Joyce Meyer. Being of a different faith I'm not too fond of the Christian overlay. But she is solid. The core message - let go of that knot in your gut. Let go of fear. Let go of the anger that you use to cover your fear. If you can do that you will be guided.