Special Interests and Energy

[MSimon]

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http://theenergycollective.com/david-le ... imate-bill

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Forget the left right politics discussed (it is a minor distraction) and look at the coal vs natural gas politics. Esp. in the comments.

What I take from this: if Polywell works we are going to get hammered by all the fuels used for electrical generation. Coal, wind, solar, natural gas, uranium, and those with Thorium Dreams. Even the hydro folks may come up with objections.

When I was first pushing Polywell the "blow-up" of WB-6 was held out as the "danger of fusion in general and Polywell in particular".

The fact that EMC2 is letting us fanboys (haven't seen Polygirl lately) handle publicity may be in order to slow down the formation of a credible opposition.

[Antice]

You think they are going to sneak fusion trough the back door so to say? keeping it hidden in plain sight as a somewhat wooish looking option that nobody takes seriously until it is too late to prevent a full takeover of the energy market?
Isn't that a little bit too much conspiracy like tho?

[MSimon]

You think they are going to sneak fusion trough the back door so to say? keeping it hidden in plain sight as a somewhat wooish looking option that nobody takes seriously until it is too late to prevent a full takeover of the energy market?
Isn't that a little bit too much conspiracy like tho? :twisted:

Read the article and tell me there isn't a political war going on between the various energy sectors. If you know about it wouldn't you take steps to avoid it as much as possible? Not to say that such is happening. But also consider it may be.

[Roger]

M- astute observation, but don't overblow it. Coal spewing power plants, nuclear waste making fission plants, gas burning Co2 belching cars... These things have considerable political opposition. Worried about Global warming? Polywell will shut down all the coal plants, make gas cars niche, shut down fission nukes, in fact it might burn fission waste.

Now the lobby groups might have something to say to congress, but they will have zero leverage except for those free dinneers and those junkits that cause a ton of paperwork because oF Oxley Sarbanes.
There'll be some whiners, political opposition if you will. But for the most part Polywell garners the more allies.

I see polywell plants getting green lighted at a rate that will make construction companies that build coal and fission jealous. Those same companies will all want a piece of the polywell construction pie. In fact the construction companies will fight for the right to party..... Lol. It might even pit the coal mine and plant owners against the Construction companies who want in on building polywells. Then consider thew unions.. Builing polywells means lots of good jobs.

[Antice]

Read the article and tell me there isn't a political war going on between the various energy sectors. If you know about it wouldn't you take steps to avoid it as much as possible? Not to say that such is happening. But also consider it may be.

An Energy war? you bet I have noticed. I've also noticed how dodgy some organizations like greenpeace are about who is actually funding them.
I get accused of being a paid shill for big nuke whenever I'm in one of those energy debates. I sure wish I was in the employ of big nuke. now that would have allowed me to be a full time activist too
But the real shills are more often than not these windpower advocating "greens" whom it turns out more often than not do get funds from "big OIL" (read BP and friends).

There is at present an internecine war going on among environmentally conscious people.
On one side you have the nuke haters like greenpeace, with their anti "capitalist" agenda.
On the other side you have the moderate greens. these are the people who believes in AGW, or at least thinks that polution = bad in any case, these people are a mix of liberals and right wingers, with the odd leftist here and there who put results ahead of intentions. ( i think that makes them into borderline utilitarians tho.)


Now back to where fusion and polywell in particular sit in that landscape.
Polywell is at present enjoying funding from a protective entity like the navy. It's low profile at present, is probably an asset for now. The turds being slung around are plenty big, and it's inconceivable that anyone would not aim to stop polywell if it became obvious that it threatened their economic interests. (read big oil and their greenwashers)
However. several groups. especially the pro science ones will quickly become fusion advocates if given the choice between fission and fusion. or at least if it's p-B11 aneutronic fusion.

Besides. there is a lot of "waste" out there that needs to be transmuted into less dangerous ashes. Gen IV fission can do this. fusion cannot, so even if aliens landed tomorrow and handed us a magic powersource it would still make sense to develop and build these waste burning power-plants just to get rid of it.


Now all things said and done. I somehow find it hard to believe that staying in obscurity is a deliberate act to avoid the energy war out there. I just do not think that the other actors have enough power to stop polywell from becoming real no matter how hard they try.
I think it's much more likely that either EMC2 wants to have a good old head start towards commercialization of the technology, or that the US Navy wants to one up the competition with polywell powered ships in order to maintain their technological lead.

[MSimon]

Unions have two functions: getting above market wages for their members and driving what ever functions they currently perform to cheaper more flexible venues. Except for government unions whose function is outright theft. Which is to say: unions no longer give most folks the warm fuzzies.

But my greater point is: what people think they believe about a given subject is more due to the propagandizing of various factions rather than intimacy with facts. And it is often done by stealth.

From the comments at the link:

...the Sierra Club is a stalking horse for the natural gas industry. He adds that as gas competes with uranium as a fuel source, marshalling the greens to oppose nuclear benefits gas. I am astonished to learn about this relationship. On reflex I am skeptical of it, but other instances show that there is a relationship between green groups and gas. A case in point is that the Conservation Foundation opposes relicensing of the Vermont Yankee reactor while holding an equity position in a natural gas plant across the border in New Hampshire. See Meredith Angwin's blog Yes Vermont Yankee for details.

Edison used these same tactics against Westinghouse:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2007/12/roots.html

In fact Edison invented the electric chair to discredit AC.

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And CO2 scepticism is increasing. The general feeling here and in Britain: "wallet extraction scheme". I suggested way back that Polywell not be tied to any "$Green" movement. Just in case the movement fell out of favor or got discredited. For the most part that has been observed.

This is doubly important if as some in the climate field suggest we are in for a decade or three of very cold winters. If that comes to pass any one associated with the CO2 fear agenda will be seen as a corrupt profiteer who led us down the wrong path. I don't want Polywell in that club. When political fashions change it could be quite toxic.

My personal opinion is all that follows clear to the bottom (ok use my phraseology against me, I've given you a good opening): The day is coming when scientific scares are met with the epithet: "global warming." Or to be more blunt: "They don't call it 'scaring up some money' for nothing."

I'd like to reduce fears. They have such nasty side effects. Like wars.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... print.html

Even if every one in the US committed mass suicide it would make very little difference to the global CO2 burden if we don’t get the Chinese aboard.

If it weren’t for the carbon footprint I’d suggest a war to bomb them back into the stone age. To save the planet.

So tell me: is CO2 worth starting a war over? If not the doomsday rhetoric is way overblown. My take on the whole CO2 warming deal: at WORST it will be convenient. At best it will prevent another ice age. Coming soon to a planet near you if history is any gauge.

Every on who trades in fear is a warmonger. Well OK - I'm a warmonger when it comes to the insanity emanating from the Middle East. So you know. Choose your fears wisely.

[MSimon]

Now all things said and done. I somehow find it hard to believe that staying in obscurity is a deliberate act to avoid the energy war out there. I just do not think that the other actors have enough power to stop polywell from becoming real no matter how hard they try.

It was a deliberate tactic pre-2007 to stay out of DOE's sights.

[rj40]

In the end, if it works, I think there will be too much money to be made; it won't be stopped. Maybe slowed for a time, but not stopped.

What will real radicals do? Like the Earth Liberation Front? Or people who just don't like western society or its influence?

[rj40]

OK, OK. Just because you don't like Western society doesn't make you a radical.

[Tom Ligon]

I imagine the competition will be fierce. About like when Japanese cars and motorcycles started coming into the US market. The US industry used terms such as "riceburners." But market forces worked nontheless, and hardly anyone was killed over it.

[IntLibber]

You think they are going to sneak fusion trough the back door so to say? keeping it hidden in plain sight as a somewhat wooish looking option that nobody takes seriously until it is too late to prevent a full takeover of the energy market?
Isn't that a little bit too much conspiracy like tho?

Dude, the Democrats are in charge of the Navy budget these days. If the Navy is going to squeeze this through, they need to do it in a way that doesn't alert the green hysteria machine to jump into action with rent-a-protests etc.

[ltgbrown]

Greenies will not affect whether or not the Navy uses polywell to power its ships. Whether or not it works (with benefits beyond what we already have, which we all believe to be numerous, especially if it can burn PB11) is what will decide it.

What the greenies can affect is how, or possibly if, Polywell is employed outside the military. IMHO, (assuming it can burn PB11) anyone that tries to slow down or impede in any way introduction and use of Polywell will get steam rolled. The positives are so huge that they make the negatives (which I am having trouble thinking of any at the moment, again, assuming it can burn PB11) disappear.

Here is a quick positive that wipes away any negatives: Hey Iran, you want nuclear power? Here is a NUCLEAR fusion reactor, for free, just stop trying to do fIsion.

[Antice]

Greenies will not affect whether or not the Navy uses polywell to power its ships. Whether or not it works (with benefits beyond what we already have, which we all believe to be numerous, especially if it can burn PB11) is what will decide it.

What the greenies can affect is how, or possibly if, Polywell is employed outside the military. IMHO, (assuming it can burn PB11) anyone that tries to slow down or impede in any way introduction and use of Polywell will get steam rolled. The positives are so huge that they make the negatives (which I am having trouble thinking of any at the moment, again, assuming it can burn PB11) disappear.

Here is a quick positive that wipes away any negatives: Hey Iran, you want nuclear power? Here is a NUCLEAR fusion reactor, for free, just stop trying to do fIsion.

Exactly. this is why most the non shill organisations will never stand in the way of fusion. the false greens like greepeace will try to do as their oil masters bid, but it will spell their end. good riddance I say. they give the word green a negative connotation.
Thorium advocates will just alter their tactic to try to fill the leftover niches like nuclear waste removal and any and all application where fusion for one reason or other is not the best solution. most thorium advocates are pretty much pragmatists who want to bet on something a bit more certain than polywell. We are waiting for results still. and are liable to not get to know much of anything for at least another year.

[IntLibber]

I certainly hope you are right. I have a more pragmatic view of the political machine, though. People are so paranoid about new-cue-lar power of any kind today, it doesn't seem to matter if you promise to only build it on Mars, and the established energy industry is so entrenched that they are going to exploit people's fears like you have no idea.

Comparing the situation to Edison and Tesla isn't even comparable. Back in that day and age, 95% of the population got most of their energy from chopping wood. Electrification of any kind had the support of the coal industry since it would expand the consumption of coal by power plants and reduce the safety problems that existed with reformer gas. The Lumber industry was just fine with that since they had already logged most of the forests of the US by that time and were dealing with their own Peak Wood problem in just supplying paper, furniture, and other needs.

That said, the EPA is issuing mercury regulations this summer that will shut down about 20% of the coal plants in the US since their operators don't have the capital to refit them with clean-coal technology. Those same operators certainly don't have the capital to refit them with polywell if they can't afford some scrubbers.

[MSimon]

Comparing the situation to Edison and Tesla isn't even comparable

Not in magnitude, but in kind, i.e. tactically.