Socialism As Socialism Does

[MSimon]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scott ... -21079572/

BRITAIN will be hit harder than any other country by the global financial crisis this year, according to a damning report.

And Scotland is heading for an even worse recession than the rest of the UK, business leaders warned yesterday.

The International Monetary Fund said the UK economy will shrink by 2.8 per cent, more than double their previous prediction and far worse than America and the rest of Europe.

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Exper ... 6196078.jp
ANOTHER severe warning of the economic pain to be inflicted on Scotland has been delivered in a report predicting cuts in public sector pay and jobs.

One of Scotland's most influential opinion-forming institutions has said that there should be "no sacred cows" when it comes to making savings.

The Royal Society of Edinburgh has said that none of the SNP Government's key policies including those on class sizes, student fees, nursing care and concessionary travel should be exempt from cuts.

Welfare was designed to improve our lives, but hasn’t.

Over most of the past century, the liberal democracies of the west were distinguished from totalitarian regimes in eastern and central Europe - communist, but also at one time fascist and National Socialist - by representative government and a rule of law. But the demo­cracies themselves were increasingly divided by the Atlantic. The countries that now form the core of the European Union developed elaborate systems of public health care, education and welfare funded by taxation and directed by the state (as indeed did those dictatorships). The United States did not.

But perhaps part of our real problem is something different from an imaginary assault on public welfare. Could it be that the welfare state itself has gone wrong, with consequences unintended as well as malign? Judt's book is dedicated to his schoolboy sons, with his awareness of "how inadequately we have furnished them with the means to improve" the world they will inherit. Some of the reasons for that problematic legacy are discussed in another new book, The Pinch, by the Conservative frontbencher David Willetts. He shows how the baby-boom generation, born in the 20 years after the end of the Second World War (which includes Judt, Willetts and myself), has been selfish and thriftless in ways that have greatly attenuated prospects for the next generation, while welfare may have discouraged social mobility, or even the well-being of the masses.

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics ... alism-judt

Socialism is just another way the aristocrats keep the masses down. The Road to Serfdom anyone?

I'm glad you in Scotland like your socialism. It seems Americans prefer their liberty. We never wanted to be anyone's serfs.

[Gallium]

This highlights perfectly the problem which my "5 things you like about the political ideology you hate" seeks to highlight.

Not a single positive word thus far.

The current level of debate, highlighted within this thread there is not even a recognition that the other side could ever do any right. There can never be a compromise between two sides if one of those sides can't accept the other's existence. While there might be substantial numbers that hold these views, it is of no concern to the other side. Even if basic governance requires at least some level of cooperation.
If this attitude takes hold within a democracy, then it is doomed.

[Skipjack]

Why Greece, Spain, and Italy are on the cutting edge of the bright European future.

These countries have been among the poorest in the EU from the start.
It is not news. The other EU countries have been carriing them along for quite some time. Greece of course is really crashing hard at the moment. But then there are Germany and Austria that are doing comparably good. Germany despite the fact that they still have to recover from the reunion.

Yeah. National Socialism was not socialism.

Correct

And Soviet Socialism was not socialism and Socialism in Europe is a rousing success

Incorrect

And the reason Europe is dying demographically has nothing to do with socialism.

Yes that is correct. This is a side effect of current socialist policy. Part of this is mental self crastration due to WW2 guilt. Just because Hitler had a policy that encouraged women to have children does not mean that this is a bad thing (another reason why this is not socialism, btw.).

The predicted growth for the USA is about 2.2%.

Not what I have read. I have read that there is still no growth or even a negative growth predicted for 2010.

And when the China bubble pops the world will be in a a world of hurt.

Yeah moving all the production to China was a very, very bad idea, I agree with that.

BTW Hayek who was on the scene in 1944 said the USSR and National Socialist Germany were socialist countries. He won a Nobel Prize in economics. So maybe he knew something.
You really ought to read his book. It is possible that an education awaits you.

Yeah a lot of people say a lot of things for a lot of reasons... Not always the truth.

[Skipjack]

BRITAIN will be hit harder than any other country by the global financial crisis this year, according to a damning report.

Of course they are. It is not only that they are fighting a war that is not even theirs and wasting money on it. England never recovered from WW2. They are so far in debt, especially with the US, that they will never get out of it. Europe in general was the big looser of WW2. There were only two real winners. One of them was the US.
Anyway, Germany, France and Austria die recover thanks to very hard work by their population. Most of the other countries, are still not fully there.

[Diogenes]

To answer your question directly:

Personally speaking, the experiences of both myself and my country with socialism are generally speaking pretty positive. Good experiences from all my family with collectively funded national healthcare. World class state education to university level. Council services, despite the odd niggle, are pretty good all round. Frequent public transport too and from my work. Water flows from the taps. Power out of the socket. Effective safety net should I fall on hard times (which I have done in the past).
A fairly typical 1st World existence, or so I like to think. One I hope that a viable fusion solution would help improve even more.
.
.
.
So, to sum up, yes, I and 86% of my country are (varying degrees of) socialist. Why? Because we like it.

Sounds wonderful! Sign me up! Just one thing though, what about this?

[Diogenes]

This highlights perfectly the problem which my "5 things you like about the political ideology you hate" seeks to highlight.

Not a single positive word thus far.

The current level of debate, highlighted within this thread there is not even a recognition that the other side could ever do any right. There can never be a compromise between two sides if one of those sides can't accept the other's existence. While there might be substantial numbers that hold these views, it is of no concern to the other side. Even if basic governance requires at least some level of cooperation.
If this attitude takes hold within a democracy, then it is doomed.

Socialism is a Potemkin village. The reason we have nothing good to say about it is because we can see where it goes long term, and don't care how pretty it appears to be short term.

Why would we sell our future for our present?

[Diogenes]

Why Greece, Spain, and Italy are on the cutting edge of the bright European future.

These countries have been among the poorest in the EU from the start.
It is not news. The other EU countries have been carriing them along for quite some time. Greece of course is really crashing hard at the moment. But then there are Germany and Austria that are doing comparably good. Germany despite the fact that they still have to recover from the reunion.

Yeah. National Socialism was not socialism.

Correct

There is an interesting little tidbit in Erik Von Kuehnelt-Leddihin's (He's an Austrian, I believe) book, "Leftism Revisited"







that says the Original Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei Flags were created by sewing swastikas over the communist emblems on the Red Communist flags they already had from their earlier political efforts. This implies strongly that the National Socialists were originally populated by communists.

Also, the rest of their name, "German Workers Party" ought to give people a clue. What other group in the world referred to themselves as the "Workers Party" ?


The book quite effectively "Marries" the Nazis with the Communists.
(it's really an awesome book, delving deeply into the history of socialist movements. )

[Diogenes]

This highlights perfectly the problem which my "5 things you like about the political ideology you hate" seeks to highlight.

Not a single positive word thus far.

The current level of debate, highlighted within this thread there is not even a recognition that the other side could ever do any right. There can never be a compromise between two sides if one of those sides can't accept the other's existence. While there might be substantial numbers that hold these views, it is of no concern to the other side. Even if basic governance requires at least some level of cooperation.
If this attitude takes hold within a democracy, then it is doomed.

Allow me to turn the tables on you.


Name 5 Positive things about the Nazis.

Please apply this principle: "There can never be a compromise between two sides if one of those sides can't accept the other's existence."

[TallDave]

And when the China bubble pops the world will be in a a world of hurt.
...
Yeah moving all the production to China was a very, very bad idea, I agree with that.

Shrug. I heard the same thing about Japan twenty years ago.

When China has its Lost Decade (and it will happen when China is still considerably poorer than Japan was, because they have some truly monstrous inefficiencies) we'll motor on relatively comfortably, just like we did in the 1990s.

The consumer is king, the producer his most humble servant.

[Skipjack]

The consumer is king, the producer his most humble servant.

Yeah, but if you want to consume something somebody else produced, you first have to pay for it. And where is that money going to come from?
You guys have container ships leaving for china empty and coming back full of cars, cloths, etc.
What is it that you are selling to China in return for these goods? I see a serious lack of balance there.
Of course you can keep making debt, but at some point the debt is going to kick you into the butt hard.

The book quite effectively "Marries" the Nazis with the Communists.

Of course it does. There is nothing like putting everything together that people hate to create the "super villain". I am sure someone will show up to get the muslims in there as well. Then you have the national socialist muslim communist party. I cant wait!

[Skipjack]

Name 5 Positive things about the Nazis.

1. They got you on the moon
2. They influenced most of your post war submarine designs.
3. They got you up and running on ballistic missiles, launched from subs.
4. They stopped Stalin from rolling over Europe with the tanks that Roosevelt built for him.
5. They got you the final clues on how to get a nuclear bomb going.

[Jccarlton]

The consumer is king, the producer his most humble servant.

Yeah, but if you want to consume something somebody else produced, you first have to pay for it. And where is that money going to come from?
You guys have container ships leaving for china empty and coming back full of cars, cloths, etc.
What is it that you are selling to China in return for these goods? I see a serious lack of balance there.
Of course you can keep making debt, but at some point the debt is going to kick you into the butt hard.

The book quite effectively "Marries" the Nazis with the Communists.

Of course it does. There is nothing like putting everything together that people hate to create the "super villain". I am sure someone will show up to get the muslims in there as well. Then you have the national socialist muslim communist party. I cant wait!

Look up the Mufti of Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
The PLO had deep ties to the KGB as well.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/778409/posts
You can't make this stuff up. Evil makes for very strange bedfellows.
Now as to the seeming trade imbalance. Well my area of the US(CT) has had a loads/empties problem for a century now and we are not suffering. Why? because the goods that CT exports have a much higher value/volume than the goods we buy. The same is true with China. If the company I worked for sells a $4 million interferometer to China(I worked on the design and I know where the first four were going) it makes for a lot of containers of etch a sketches and Nikes. The same is true for other advanced machinery and other high value goods like diamonds from NYC or reagents and medical equipment. To say nothing of aircraft engines and components, advanced machine tools and nuclear power plants.

[MSimon]

The book quite effectively "Marries" the Nazis with the Communists.

Of course it does. There is nothing like putting everything together that people hate to create the "super villain".

One more time. Hayek who wrote this book in 1944:

Said that the Nazis, The Soviets, The Fascists, and the Socialists were part of the same taxonomy. And he gives evidence.

The Road to Serfdom

I have evidence. You can deny it all you want. But there it is in the record. By a Nobel Prize winner. In Economics.

Now I can understand why you as a socialist might not want to be associated with them. You will understand why I don't care much for socialists.

The association is ideological and historical. If you don't like it perhaps another ideology is in order.

Perhaps the incentives are wrong in socialism since it goes bad so often.

[Skipjack]

Now I can understand why you as a socialist might not want to be associated with them.

I AM NOT A FRACKING SOCIALIST!
Again, National Socialism is based on (a twisted version of) gentics.
Socialism is based on Lamarckism. That is as different as night and day.
One is classes, the other is genetics.
Classes != genetics.
How hard is that to understand?!

[MSimon]

Now I can understand why you as a socialist might not want to be associated with them.

I AM NOT A FRACKING SOCIALIST!
Again, National Socialism is based on (a twisted version of) gentics.
Socialism is based on Lamarckism. That is as different as night and day.
One is classes, the other is genetics.
Classes != genetics.
How hard is that to understand?!

Ah. You mean that variant of Socialism is based on all that.

What you are telling me in essence is that a Chihuahua is a dog but a Greyhound is not. And a Pit Bull is a dog (but we don't talk about it). I'm sorry. That will not fly.

And of course you are only partially a Socialist. You are a flaming libertarian except when it comes to medicine. Then you are a Socialist.