Different polyhedra require different strength magnets

Discuss the technical details of an "open source" community-driven design of a polywell reactor.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

blaisepascal
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:57 am
Location: Ithaca, NY
Contact:

Post by blaisepascal »

TallDave wrote:
The other type, the "virtual" solenoids aren't as obvious: Around each of the 8 vertices of the cube, there are three large currents from the three adjacent physical solenoids forming a triangle (a very curvy triangle, but a triangle) with the currents going counterclockwise when viewed from the outside. Since all the physics cares about is a circulating current around the axis of the solenoid, doing it in three unconnected segments is perfectly fine, and you get a solenoid without a coil.
Yes, that's interesting. I saw it suggested in there somewhere that you could also (in theory) wire the virtual solenoids instead.
With a cuboctahedron, you have 8 triangular faces and 6 square faces. If you took 8 coils and supported them so they were on the faces of an octahedron in the same fashion that the WB-6 has six coils on the faces of a cube, then you would have 8 physical solenoids and 6 virtual solenoids and the overall geometry would be identical to that of the WB-6, just with more coils.

If you made the coils with a polygonal plan-form, you could use 8 triangular coils and 6 square coils and completely eliminate the virtual coils, but there's no need.
The appearance of the WB-6/7/8/8.1 is cubic, with six coils on the faces of the cube, but the underlying physics is cuboctahedral, with inward pointing (physical) solenoids on the 6 square faces and outward pointing (virtual) solenoids on the 8 triangular faces. The vertices of the cuboctahedron are at the 12 points where the physical coils come close to touching. Around each of these twelve points are 4 solenoids, two pointing in, two pointing out, alternating. This arrangement, of alternating inward and outward solenoids is the key to Bussard's design for the polywell.
Yes, having trouble visualizing that, but it sounds like it makes sense. Is there a picture of this floating around anywhere? Too much to hope I expect.
KitemanSA posted a picture of a cuboctahedron, but it apparently caused problems ;-). But if you look at the Cuboctahedron page on Wikipedia, about half-way down there is a section called "Related Polyhedra" which has a series of five pictures which might be helpful. I'll see if I can link in the relevant thumbnail versions...


Image

The second one (truncated cube) shows roughly the geometry of the WB-6. It's easy to imagine the round coils on the red faces, which would correspond to the physical solenoids, while the yellow faces would correspond to the virtual ones. The edges where two red faces join are the sources of the "line cusps", and are not desirable.

Image

The third one (cuboctahedron) is the "plan geometry" the WB-6 is trying to emulate, and would be what you would get if you followed KitemanSA's long-stated goal to have polygonal coils instead of round ones. With this, you could use either the square or triangular faces as "real", as the polygonal coils would follow the edges, except near the vertices. At the 12 vertices the fields cancel out (because of symmetry) and this forms the "funny cusps" that Bussard talks about. Again, the red faces point in, the yellow faces point out.

Note the key feature Bussard stressed: if you look at a vertex (any one, they are all the same) you'll note that the faces meeting at that vertex are alternately colored red and yellow. Any polyhedron which has that property is suitable for forming a polywell, but the more spherical the better.

Image

The fourth one (truncated octahedron) is what you would get if you used 8 round coils on the faces of an octahedron. In this case, the red faces are virtual solenoids while the yellow faces are physical solenoids. And like in the truncated cube case, the edges where the yellow faces meet cause line cusps and losses.

BTW, The geometry Bussard wanted to use for the original WB-8 was the icosidodecahedron, which looks like this:

Image

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

TallDave wrote: I thought the whole point of this was that it's not what WB-6 and WB-7 have. Are you saying WB-6 and WB-7 don't have N:N and S:S? Why would we be arguing over whether it's necessary if we already aren't doing it?)
Are you trying to be obtuse for fun or is there a real confusion here?

WB6,7 have N:N across the cube. It has a null vector field at the very center of the core (in theory).

A rect-tet (aka octahedron) would have N:S across the rect-tet. It STILL has a null vector field at the center of the core (in theory).

A stand along N:S configureation (two and only two coils) would NOT have a null field between the magnets. The field would be almost as strong at the point midway between coils as it was in the middle of each coil.

If you have 4 pairs of N:S, you can arrange tham to vector sum to zero in the center of the core. This is the rect-tet mentioned above.

Simple.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

Code: Select all

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b2/
Uniform_polyhedron-43-t01.png/100px-Uniform_polyhedron-43-t01.png [/img]
AHA!!! That is how you do it! Thank you blaisepascal.

Unh, how did you find the URL?

Naughty naughty. You know how I hate messing up the page formatting - Simon the Moderator

Wha? Looks fine in mine. How is this messing up the page formatting? just in case, I inserted a CR.
Last edited by KitemanSA on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote: You know as moderator I must say I don't like your attitude. Too much trouble to make it easy for other users is not in the spirit of this place.
I have waded thru many a large image with the need to left-right scroll. And I agree, it is something of a pain. But so far, the only time I have noticed you mentioning it is to me. If I have missed others, my apologies, but your communication to me sounded a tad overly sensitive.

blaise... has shown the way, I think, so I hope that I will now be able to select more manageable images to post.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote: You know as moderator I must say I don't like your attitude. Too much trouble to make it easy for other users is not in the spirit of this place.
I have waded thru many a large image with the need to left-right scroll. And I agree, it is something of a pain. But so far, the only time I have noticed you mentioning it is to me. If I have missed others, my apologies, but your communication to me sounded a tad overly sensitive.

blaise... has shown the way, I think, so I hope that I will now be able to select more manageable images to post.
Yours is not the first image I have reverted to a url.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

blaisepascal wrote:If you made the coils with a polygonal plan-form, you could use 8 triangular coils and 6 square coils and completely eliminate the virtual coils, but there's no need.
True, there is no need, but there may very well be a great benefit. Such a set-up could be structurally self supporting against the high loads from the magnet, WITHOUT having anything physical in a cusp. It could further be hung from the overhead with very slender supports against gravity alone.

Since Dr. B. suggests there can't be more than a few 10,000ths of the total area blocking the electron flow, I figure the lack of anything in a cusp is a good thing. Necessary? No. Good? I think so. So good that it outweighs the added cost? TBD.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

I give a hearty WELL DONE to blaisepascal for his most excellent description. With his permission, I will place it in the FAQ, assuming it comes back on line.

TallDave
Posts: 3141
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:12 pm
Contact:

Post by TallDave »

blaise,

I was thinking more of something illustrating the magnetic fields from the solenoids (real and virtual) and their directions.
Kiteman wrote:WB6,7 have N:N across the cube.
Magnets across the cube from each other aren't relevant to the question of confinement.
A stand along N:S configureation (two and only two coils) would NOT have a null field between the magnets. The field would be almost as strong at the point midway between coils as it was in the middle of each coil.
This is what I'm not clear about. Intuitively I would expect a particle at the center line between them to feel cancelling effects, because the forces are equal and push in opposite directions (and I remember someone claiming that here a year or so ago). Nor do I see how you get an increase in force at the center (surely this must fall with distance). Is there an equation that describes this behavior?

I've dug around a little, but all I've found is descriptions of a magnetic bottle (which requires N:N or S:S).

It's not a terribly esoteric problem, so you'd think a definitive source would be relatively easy to find.
Last edited by TallDave on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:16 pm, edited 6 times in total.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote: Yours is not the first image I have reverted to a url.
Ok.

blaisepascal
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:57 am
Location: Ithaca, NY
Contact:

Post by blaisepascal »

KitemanSA wrote: AHA!!! That is how you do it! Thank you blaisepascal.

Unh, how did you find the URL?

I first used the firebug extension in Firefox to examine the html which displayed the image on the wikipedia page, and copy/pasted the image URL.

Then I noticed that when I right-clicked on the image, Firefox had a "Copy Image Location" option, which did exactly what I wanted.

TallDave
Posts: 3141
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:12 pm
Contact:

Post by TallDave »

blaisepascal wrote:I first used the firebug extension in Firefox to examine the html which displayed the image on the wikipedia page, and copy/pasted the image URL.

Then I noticed that when I right-clicked on the image, Firefox had a "Copy Image Location" option, which did exactly what I wanted.
That sounds a lot better than my usual tactic of digging through View Source in Notepad.

blaisepascal
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:57 am
Location: Ithaca, NY
Contact:

Post by blaisepascal »

KitemanSA wrote:I give a hearty WELL DONE to blaisepascal for his most excellent description. With his permission, I will place it in the FAQ, assuming it comes back on line.
I have no objection, but I would suggest snagging the images rather than hot-linking to Wikipedia.

blaisepascal
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:57 am
Location: Ithaca, NY
Contact:

Post by blaisepascal »

A stand along N:S configureation (two and only two coils) would NOT have a null field between the magnets. The field would be almost as strong at the point midway between coils as it was in the middle of each coil.
This is what I'm not clear about. Intuitively I would expect a particle at the center line between them to feel cancelling effects, because the forces are equal and push in opposite directions (and I remember someone claiming that here a year or so ago). Nor do I see how you get an increase in force at the center (surely this must fall with distance). Is there an equation that describes this behavior?

I've dug around a little, but all I've found is descriptions of a magnetic bottle (which requires N:N or S:S).

It's not a terribly esoteric problem, so you'd think a definitive source would be relatively easy to find.[/quote]

Assuming we are talking about two coils which share an axis and are both oriented in the same direction (e.g., two coils along the x axis with N in the x+ direction in both), there's an easy way to imagine what's going on.

Imagine you have a solenoid which is 10cm long, wrapped with 200 turns of 0.5mm enameled wire in one layer. It is clear that there is a strong field in the bore of this solenoid. With more information (coil diameter, current in wire, core material, etc) one could compute exactly the strength.

Now imagine cutting this solenoid in half, to form two solenoids, each 5cm long, each with 100 turns of 0.5mm enameled wire in one layer. Keeping the same current in each solenoid, the field should be exactly the same as before -- except now you have two coils in N:S configuration, not one coil.

Separating the two cores along their axis doesn't cause a drastic discontinuity between them, and the field is still strong along the axis.

If you were to reverse the current flow in one coil, to give an N:N configuration, you would have a null as the two magnetic fields would cancel.

No body really specifically talks about the N:S configuration because one of the first things you learn working with magnets is that if you stick two magnets together N to S you get a bigger magnet, and if you break a magnet in half you get two magnets stuck together N to S.

TallDave
Posts: 3141
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:12 pm
Contact:

Post by TallDave »

Now imagine cutting this solenoid in half, to form two solenoids, each 5cm long, each with 100 turns of 0.5mm enameled wire in one layer. Keeping the same current in each solenoid, the field should be exactly the same as before -- except now you have two coils in N:S configuration, not one coil.
Sure. Now turn one 180 degrees and place it next to the other. Is there a null at the center between them? Or do they make one big magnetic field that an electron bounces off of as though it were one big coil?

We have all these places along the line edges of the cube where magnetic fields run into each other. Aren't they butting against each other and making cusps?

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:

Code: Select all

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b2/
Uniform_polyhedron-43-t01.png/100px-Uniform_polyhedron-43-t01.png [/img]
AHA!!! That is how you do it! Thank you blaisepascal.

Unh, how did you find the URL?

Naughty naughty. You know how I hate messing up the page formatting - Simon the Moderator

Wha? Looks fine in mine. How is this messing up the page formatting? just in case, I inserted a CR.
If you see a left/right scroll bar added the link is too long. The picture too big. etc.

I note that when my LCD monitor was working (it died) these sorts of thing were less of a problem. But they were still a problem.

My current setting is 1024 X 768. So if the link is too long fore me it will be too long for a lot of people.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Post Reply