More Helion Energy news....

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

crowberry wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:18 pm
Yes, I read those abstracts, but a journal paper is more interesting because of the much more content than fits an abstract. It is already many years since Helion Energy published a paper on their work, so hopefulyl they will publish these new results in a paper that is accessible.
Yes, I am sure there will be a full paper.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

Thank you Skipjack for the links.

I am interested in how Helion will deal with the waste heat. 5% may not sound like much but on a utility scale it is significant. Efficiency is important when fuel cost is expensive as it means fuel, but for fusion it means the reactor size (capital cost), and waste heat management.

GF by announcing their UK plant has put pressure on the other companies to reassure their private investors which seems to be one of the few ways we come by information. This information for instance from Helion came out in January, yet it is only now that we see it.

I am not sure these companies realize that utilities plan 10 to 15 years in advance for power generation, so it is important to put their research progress on their radar in believable ways, ways that can be translated to real, concrete plans... as there it the perception still that fusion is always 20 years off.

Therefore, if you do indeed have some contact with Helion it would be worth a lot for Helion to contact the utilities top management sooner than later ... with more engineering detail than we are seeing. GF has done that, Helion has not.

This fusion organization that set up the conference seems to be purely focused on Gruberment regulations. That is necessary, but utilities need to be directly involved in this. We are past science experimentation, it is past time to move the thinking past that too.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

mvanwink5 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:22 am
Thank you Skipjack for the links.

I am interested in how Helion will deal with the waste heat. 5% may not sound like much but on a utility scale it is significant. Efficiency is important when fuel cost is expensive as it means fuel, but for fusion it means the reactor size (capital cost), and waste heat management.

GF by announcing their UK plant has put pressure on the other companies to reassure their private investors which seems to be one of the few ways we come by information. This information for instance from Helion came out in January, yet it is only now that we see it.

I am not sure these companies realize that utilities plan 10 to 15 years in advance for power generation, so it is important to put their research progress on their radar in believable ways, ways that can be translated to real, concrete plans... as there it the perception still that fusion is always 20 years off.

Therefore, if you do indeed have some contact with Helion it would be worth a lot for Helion to contact the utilities top management sooner than later ... with more engineering detail than we are seeing. GF has done that, Helion has not.

This fusion organization that set up the conference seems to be purely focused on Gruberment regulations. That is necessary, but utilities need to be directly involved in this. We are past science experimentation, it is past time to move the thinking past that too.
5% waste heat is not much. IIRC, Helion has the ability to surround the burn chamber with a FLiBe blanket for extra Tritium breeding. That can also be used to capture the waste heat and bring it to some use. Though granted, at 50 MWe with 95% conversion efficiency, the 5% waste heat would be ~2.5 MW. Not sure what to do with those. Maybe use it for industrial or domestic heating. Or maybe they could drive a small steam turbine with it. The question is whether the additional return would be worth the added complexity of all that extra equipment. I mean thermal plants have at best 40% efficiency (combined cycle gas) and 60% waste heat. For most others that is even worse.
I think they will be able to manage that somehow.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

SJ, you don't understand, the issue is not how to recover and use the waste heat, it is about where it goes and how is it handled to remove it? Heat engines use heat so that is handled by design. If the loss of efficiency for Helion is in the power electronics, then that would be simple. If the loss of heat is in the divertors, that too should be straight forward, magnets too should be easy. Other?
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

The 2.5 MW waste heat should be roughly that of a large diesel train engine. So I presume that same techniques can be used to dispose of the waste heat.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

SJ,
I can get rid of orders of magnitude greater heat, the issue is what is being heated up that needs to be cooled? To answer that a physical plant needs to be sketched out. I can do that for GF. A simplified schematic for Helion would be sufficient. Besides for a 100 MW gross plant with 95% efficiency, which I don't buy but for arguments sake let's say it is, that would be 5MW cooling system, easy to do, yes.

Look, GF is building a plant. Long ago this stopped being a science experiment. It is an engineering job. GF has designs for all of their components, that is why they can build it. Helion too has the components based on their last version 6 and their new diverter which is better than the one that ran for 16 months (not the way a real machine would be run, mind you).

I want to shake the trees for these Utility companies and get them to get interested in these companies... for their generation plans. Don't you understand? I go to these companies with a science experiment and they will roll their eyes.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

mvanwink5 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 pm
SJ,
I can get rid of orders of magnitude greater heat, the issue is what is being heated up that needs to be cooled? To answer that a physical plant needs to be sketched out. I can do that for GF. A simplified schematic for Helion would be sufficient. Besides for a 100 MW gross plant with 95% efficiency, which I don't buy but for arguments sake let's say it is, that would be 5MW cooling system, easy to do, yes.

Look, GF is building a plant. Long ago this stopped being a science experiment. It is an engineering job. GF has designs for all of their components, that is why they can build it. Helion too has the components based on their last version 6 and their new diverter which is better than the one that ran for 16 months (not the way a real machine would be run, mind you).

I want to shake the trees for these Utility companies and get them to get interested in these companies... for their generation plans. Don't you understand? I go to these companies with a science experiment and they will roll their eyes.
Helion plans for their plants to have 50We output. So it is 2.5 MWth that need to be dealt with. Again, I do not see that as a big deal.
As for heat deposition regions of the reactor, I am not sure. I assume that most of it will be at the central compression chamber and divertor. They also have some very fast and hot on axis plasma jets that need to be slowed/cooled down. Those are some of the things that they are working on solving right now (and they have been hiring for that).

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

SJ
At this point Helion looks like a science project one hears about in popular science. I suspect it is further than that but have nothing to talk to a company like Southern Company that actually makes and sells electric power. Anyone that thinks that a patent and a science paper can be taken to a utility to talk about generation plans is not in touch.

Are you saying that Helion has the chops to start the conversation with a utility?
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

mvanwink5 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:55 pm
SJ
At this point Helion looks like a science project one hears about in popular science. I suspect it is further than that but have nothing to talk to a company like Southern Company that actually makes and sells electric power. Anyone that thinks that a patent and a science paper can be taken to a utility to talk about generation plans is not in touch.

Are you saying that Helion has the chops to start the conversation with a utility?
I honestly do not know who they are talking to. What I do know is that while their next prototype will operate at 1Hz pulse rate it wont do so 24/7. So I would not call it a Demonstration Power Plant either. To be fair, I have yet to see one from any of their competitors. Again, I do not count GFs so called Demonstration Power Plant. It won't be putting power to the grid either. Did they ever mention the pulse rate for that one?

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

Frankly, what makes a Demonstration plant is purely an engineering question. Does the device provide enough operation experience and enable a commercial plant design to be made, and economics, O&M, capital costs calculated. In that regards, Helion's next device is quite likely to do that. However, the plant components for processing the He3 should be included in an integrated manner or can be shown to be doable. I think Helion's balance of plant components are not an issue. Given Helion's divertor experience, their next generation divertor should be better. I would not be surprised if now would be a good time to get an architectural engineering firm involved.

This is all about getting a utility so contract for building one, and that means detail design information. The next device should provide that. Also, the regulatory approval is necessary. A 50 MWe plant should be an easy sell. IMO this would be a good time to talk to a utility to get one or more of their engineers on board.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

Going to a company that has a nuclear plant would be ideal as the pilot plant could be built on a site that already has NRC approval for nuclear plant operation. Power distribution is there, plant security is in place, etc.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

Bud, I made a new thread for the discussion of what makes a Demonstration plant. You might want to check it out. I think this is a discussion worth having.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

Interesting series of Tweets. Looks like Helion is building their 7th prototype at a new location:
Helion Energy wrote:An excellent visit with @mayorcassie! After a discussion about the future of fusion electricity, we are confident that Everett, WA, is the ideal place to build our next fusion prototype. Our 7th prototype will bring us one step closer to commercializing electricity from #fusion.
Cassie Franklin wrote: Couldn’t agree more that Everett is the ideal place to build your next fusion prototype! Welcome to Everett! Your facility, the work you do and your team are incredibly impressive and I believe Everett is the perfect place for you to innovate and change our world for the better!
David Kirtley wrote:Thank you @MayorCassie, our team is certainly excited to begin working in Everett! It has been awesome seeing the excitement as they explore (and move to) such a great city for their families.
So Everett is about 20 miles towards the north of Seattle, if anyone wonders. If you look at the map, it looks like Seattle stretches all the way towards it. So one could maybe call it a suburb or bedroom community for Seattle. Certainly an interesting choice for building a fusion reactor.

https://twitter.com/Helion_Energy/statu ... 0777482250

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by mvanwink5 »

Is Helion upping their pace?
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: More Helion Energy news....

Post by Skipjack »

Seems like it :)

Post Reply