10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Giorgio]

* The coffee machine is improbable.

I must have missed whatever you are referring to...
What is improbable about a coffee machine?

.. that Rossi will ever be in a position to buy himself a new one.. ever again

[Giorgio]

Here is a quick translation of the main points of today conference till now (is still going on).
Start from the bottom.


18.39 - The first reactors that will be offered for sale will be on the range of the Kw. After they will scale up.

18.37 - Piantelli is not using catalizers, just Nickel and Hydrogen.

18.35 - Piantelli is not willing to to make any type of publicity. He will arrive on the market with a commercial product and let the market decide if the technology is real or not.

18.26 - Roy Virgilio takes the word. He states that Piantelli research is going good. A new company (NickEnergia) has been formed 5 month ago and is already licensing his know how to other industries to produce reactors of different sizes.


17.56 - Celani states that he is researching on nanoparticles deposited on thin and long strings of Pd, in Deuterium atmosphere.
He states he is getting 400/W/g at 500°C with good reproducibility.
He has worked also with Ni strings in Hydrogen atmosphere and he is getting an efficiency of 1800W/g at 900°C, but with difficulties in reproducibility.

17.05 - Focardi states that many samples of reactors has been tested, including closed circuit reactors.

17.03 - The temperature when the reaction starts is 60-70° C.

16.57 - Focardi in his pre-recorded interview states again that he does not know the Nuclear process that brings an atom of nikel to capture a proton and transform it into Copper, but the chemical analysis prove that this is what happens.

16.13 - Rossi is contacted on Skype, he confirms delivery of the 1MW plant according schedule. The first industrial plant will be delivered "patent pending", hoping that this will push the European patent application.
Domestic reactors will have to wait a couple of years due to certifications.

[Giorgio]

I posted this in the other thread.
I think one of the two thread should be closed to avoid confusion.


Another interesting tidbit from the conference.

19.10 - Among the public Milly Moratti takes the word and states that there are clearly now experimental evidences of Cold Fusion.

Now, for the one who do not know, Milli Moratti is the wife of Massimo Moratti, one of the richest man in Italy and owner of the Saras Petrol Refinery, The biggest in Italy and one of the biggest in Europe.
That's a 5,3 Billion Euro Company.

She has money and the political knowledge.

[rcain]

blimey! its all kicking off then (apparently). thanks for the update Giorgio.

[stefanbanev]

I must have missed whatever you are referring to...
What is improbable about a coffee machine?

.. that Rossi will ever be in a position to buy himself a new one.. ever again

Such comments apparently imply a trivial invidiousness disguised by sarcasm. What the point? If Rossi is a scam nobody will care otherwise you may...

[Betruger]

It's a running joke.

[KitemanSA]

I suppose that for some, ignorance equals improbable but for me, ignorance is just that not knowing; and I don't know.

In other words, Ignorance is bliss.

Is it for you? Speaking from first hand experience are you? How nice! For me, ignorance is not knowing.

Anyway, since this is a new thread, I will recap my position.

* LENR is improbable.

Ok. What is your "probability scale"? What probability is "improbable"? <50%? <5%? What is the basis for your judgement as to numbers. Do you KNOW something or are your prejudices showing?

* If LENR processes are real, the claimed orders of magnitude improvement in LENR by Rossi is improbable.

IBID

* The claimed cheap isotopic separation process of Rossi is improbable.

Seperation? Anyone else see anywhere that Rossi spoke about seperation? Enrichment I remember. Not seperation. Anyone? Is seedload here whacking at strawmen?

* The forgotten claim that shipping was held up because of a container is improbable.

Link please?

* The coincidental natural isotopic ratios of copper produced is improbable.

If seen two totally opposite secondhand reports of isotope ratios. Link to first-hand report please?

* If a real process, the highly defensive and angry replies to any serious questions is improbable.

Hey, he may just have the same "defensive" personality as ChrisMB and Chikva. You have seen how nasty they were to each other when it seems they were agreeing on most things.

* If a real discovery, the lack of scientific rigor in successive demonstrations is improbable.

Sorry, this is just nonsense. "Demonstrations" are not intended to be "scientific".

* If a real discovery, the extended time of the UOB research project is improbable..

This does seem an odd business decision.

* The idea that only specific isotopes of Nickel would 'react' is improbable.

Your scientific rationale for this is?

* The name "Rossi Tires" on the door is improbable.

So you would be surprised to see a sign for "Smith and Sons Tires" in the UK? The names have equivalent frequency I'm told.

* The naked lab is improbable.

Oh, you mean their new and as yet un-moved-into facility. Yup, no growing company EVER moves into a new facility!

* The coffee machine is improbable.

Yup, no one in Italy drinks coffee. This one is awesome!

* Given Rossi's insistence that the 1MW plant will be proof, the fact that the 'customer' for the plant is the producer of ECATs makes this claim of proof an improbable position.

Actually it makes it ENORMOUSLY likely, just not very reliable!

* If real, Rossi and Focardi disagreeing on the basic reaction at this late date is improbable.

Why? Seems no-one is positive how this thing works, if it works. Absolute uniformity of opinion on said process would be fishy to me.

* Claims of spies etc. are improbable.

Ridiculous! Claims of spies are absolute. He did so claim. The existance of spies is less absolute! Of course that merely shows his emotional state not his mental capability.

* Claims of designing a self destruct mechanism for home models are improbable.

Similar to the above, claims of designing a self destruct mechanism for home models are absolute, but said claims seem self destructive to his purposes to me!

* The inconsistent claims of filed patents vs. company secret on the secret sauce are improbable..

Unh, what "inconsistant claims" please?

* Given the history of Rossi, the idea that he has not gone straight is improbable..

Unh, given your pattern above, don't you mean that the idea that he HAS gone straight is improbable? Well, if that is your opinion.

No, I don't think we are ignorant at all. We have a basis to draw conclusions that various aspects of this whole business are improbable. .

Wonderful. Please share your basis with me. Remember Alices Restaurant with the "8x10 Glossy Photos with the circles and the arrows and the paragraph on the back of each one tellin what it's all about to be used as evidence" for your "basis". Most of the stuff above seems a bit... flakey?

Previously, my arguments were individually opposed based on the fact that each of the above is possible. For example, it is indeed possible that they are building ECATS in an apartment in Miami just like Apple did in the garage. Yes, it is possible that Rossi has found a cheap method of isotopic enrichment. Yes, it is possible, that Rossi is really being pursued by spies, is really building a self destruct mechanism to stick in peoples homes, is really held up by a shipping container, etc.

Yes, individually, all of the above is possible.

But, we are also not ignorant to the math of probability. Individually improbable things, while possible, quickly approach impossible when considered together.

Absolutely true, if your individual things had any basis for "probability" attached to them. But I see little if any basis.

Now, if you had said, unconvincing...

Seedload. I am not personally holding out much hope for this thing. But being a contrarian I just naturally ask folks to put-up or shut-up when they make technical statements. And "probability" is a technical statement. What are the bases for your technical statements? If it is just your "opinion", would you be so kind as to use the term "unlikely" rather than "improbable"? "Unlikely" is a non-technical word and no-one can reasonably argue with you.

[cg66]

Here is a quick translation of the main points of today conference till now (is still going on).
Start from the bottom.


18.39 - The first reactors that will be offered for sale will be on the range of the Kw. After they will scale up.

18.37 - Piantelli is not using catalizers, just Nickel and Hydrogen.

Giorgio - thanks for the update! Reading Google translate can be really confusing - like trying to read J.C.'s posts

I updated this from a post I made in the main thread based on Giorgio's info.

So we have:
Brian Ahern , producing 8W excess
Brillouin Energy, 2X excess, commercialization in progress
Tom Claytor (LANL), producing 5-16% excess
Rossi/Focardi, 6-30X excess, commercialization in progress
Piantelli, producing kW excess, commercialization in progress

What are the chances they are all scam artists or bad at making measurements?

[TallDave]

Hmmm...

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 49057.html

Maybe Mills is right and they're all making hydrinos. (No! Stop throwing things at me! I was only kidding, I swear!)

[Giorgio]

I hear from a friend of a friend that saw on the internet a post of a guy whose cousin has heard from a well informed source that the next product of Mills will be Hydrino bath salts.
One tea spooon in a bathtub full of cold water and you get hot water with bubbles!
NEAT!

[rcain]

...Such comments apparently imply a trivial invidiousness disguised by sarcasm. What the point? If Rossi is a scam nobody will care otherwise you may...

you may be right. But as Betrugger states, 'the coffee machine gag' is a running joke here.

Besides, my own personal view is that Rossi 'insults' the scientific community when he presents his 'work' in the way that he has. He deserves whatever flack finds it's target.

[tomclarke]

...Such comments apparently imply a trivial invidiousness disguised by sarcasm. What the point? If Rossi is a scam nobody will care otherwise you may...

you may be right. But as Betrugger states, 'the coffee machine gag' is a running joke here.

Besides, my own personal view is that Rossi 'insults' the scientific community when he presents his 'work' in the way that he has. He deserves whatever flack finds it's target.

and the scientific community would be insulting itself if it took rossi seriously.

[rcain]

I hear from a friend of a friend that saw on the internet a post of a guy whose cousin has heard from a well informed source that the next product of Mills will be Hydrino bath salts.
One tea spooon in a bathtub full of cold water and you get hot water with bubbles!
NEAT!

ah, Mills, ever the pragmatist. He he should be forewarned however about a potential new competitor in his market ....

[rcain]

...Such comments apparently imply a trivial invidiousness disguised by sarcasm. What the point? If Rossi is a scam nobody will care otherwise you may...

you may be right. But as Betrugger states, 'the coffee machine gag' is a running joke here.

Besides, my own personal view is that Rossi 'insults' the scientific community when he presents his 'work' in the way that he has. He deserves whatever flack finds it's target.

and the scientific community would be insulting itself if it took rossi seriously.

...to be fair though, it quite regularly does that to itself even without Rossi.

[stefanbanev]

...Such comments apparently imply a trivial invidiousness disguised by sarcasm. What the point? If Rossi is a scam nobody will care otherwise you may...

you may be right. But as Betrugger states, 'the coffee machine gag' is a running joke here.

Besides, my own personal view is that Rossi 'insults' the scientific community when he presents his 'work' in the way that he has. He deserves whatever flack finds it's target.

Actually if Rossi is for real then "scientific community" deserves to be a
joke so, the mockery of Rossi is expected self-defense. If Rossi is a scam
it does not improve the health of "scientific community" however, if Rossi
is for real it will trigger some restructuring of "scientific community" to
make it eventually a more efficient institute.