10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Axil]

I seek FACT... DATA. Give me FACT, I work on FACT not your "opinion".

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6id5H ... kJCN1ZkQk0

Some newly released results from Piantelli.

*We are very close to the auto-sustenance (less than 20W
introduced and 71W produced = 91W)(t=260°C)

Piantelli uses low pressure and solid rods, not the optimum for energy gain but he still gets a gain of 4.5.

Piantelli also sees wide variety of light transmuted elements. Cold fusion is real.

[ladajo]

Well Kite, you asked for fact. You are too lazy to get them for yourself. So, against my better judgement, I have spoonfed you a sampling.

Please feel free to critique each one as fact or fiction.

When doing so, note that they are all direct, cited Rossi quotes. His own words.

But, at the end, I am suspecting that you will again qualify that just because you did not see the child steal the cookie, does not mean that they did it. Even, if they told you they did. Vacuous indeed.

Eventually, even a jury must decide. Or did you miss that part of the process?

I firmly believe the Rossi is completely full of shyte. I accept that I can be wrong about it. I am man enough to take a position though, and man enough to be willing to accept being wrong.
Rossi has told lies. That fact will not change.

[KitemanSA]

Also, all any of us can to is report are belifs about the world, so "I think" is semantically vacuous.

Only if your brain is vacuous too!
There are many ways to indicate opinion vs fact besides "I think". Try them. They clarify things.

[KitemanSA]

Kiteman,

I am curious about what has made you change your mind about Rossi.

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions. But "changed your mind" implies I had concluded something and had to change the conclusion. Not true.
Your opinion changed.

What changed your opinion?

To repeat,

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions.

[KitemanSA]

It gets boring to preface every comment about Rossi with "my belief, based on all my observations, is that there is a very strong probability that" so I don't bother.

No kidding. People engaging in normal conversation don't find the need to qualify every statement with the obvious.

People in normal conversations who agreed that is was opinion wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince someone else it is fact. It SOUNDS like you have made and published negative conclusions about someone you are not really sure about so you are trying to convince others that you are correct. It is a commont response to self doubt.

As long as you state things as "fact" I will ask you to "show me the data". If you mean it is opinion, simply state so and that will end it. Is it FACT or your opinion?

[KitemanSA]

http://ecatfusion.com/e-cat/there-is-e- ... t-an-issue

Note that the 25% absorption depth in lead for 511 keV is about 1cm, so if these gammas exist nothing thin can shield them.

http://www.nikhef.nl/~h73/kn1c/praktiku ... 5_2_42.pdf

As I recall we did the math for attenuation volume and mass, and it was substantial...go figure...

Which suggests either that it is not producing the power levels claimed or he is mistaken about how the excitation energy gets converted to heat.

[seedload]

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions. But "changed your mind" implies I had concluded something and had to change the conclusion. Not true.
Your opinion changed.

What changed your opinion?

To repeat,

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions.

Be specific. What data has changed/shifted your opinion?

[KitemanSA]

Well Kite, you asked for fact. You are too lazy to get them for yourself. So, against my better judgement, I have spoonfed you a sampling.

Please feel free to critique each one as fact or fiction.

Do you mean the list of "to wits" that you provided several pages back? Did I not comment on each and every one of them?
Regarding "laziness", well sure! You all seem intent on convincing ME that your conclusions are FACT, that he IS a fraud. I am the Jury. the jury receives the evidence, it doesn't go out and look for it.
If you claim something IS so, show me the data. Or admit that there isn't any and you have basically jumped to a needless conclusion. It MAY in the final analysis prove to be the correct conclusion, but "show me the data".

When doing so, note that they are all direct, cited Rossi quotes. His own words.

Ummm, where were these?

But, at the end, I am suspecting that you will again qualify that just because you did not see the child steal the cookie, does not mean that they did it. Even, if they told you they did. Vacuous indeed.

Sorry, I must have missed where you quoted the "child stating that he stole a cookie".

Eventually, even a jury must decide. Or did you miss that part of the process?

Right, but the jury is still out. And since there is NO time limit on the jury, the jury may be out for a LONG time.

I firmly believe the Rossi is completely full of shyte. I accept that I can be wrong about it. I am man enough to take a position though, and man enough to be willing to accept being wrong.
Rossi has told lies. That fact will not change.

Up to the last two sentances, I couldn't argue with you. Show me the data. Did I miss it?

[KitemanSA]

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions.

Be specific. What data has changed/shifted your opinion?

I can't. It is a general integration of the state of data. If I could point to a single piece of data, that would almost by necessity be CONCLUSIVE. But the general lack of technical data and of any detectable activity as opposed to verbiage is suggestive.

I am kind of leaning more and more toward megalomania with delusional tendancies. It would not suprise me if he is telling the truth as he sees it but that his "vision" is warped. Fraud is next in line. Of course, he may just be one p|$$ed off SOB who has something but who is sick of folks nagging him. One of my favorite lines is from Agatha Christy where someone says she feels as if she were being nibbled to death by haddock. I wonder if that isn't Rossi. (Low likelihood, but still possible).

[seedload]

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions.

Be specific. What data has changed/shifted your opinion?

I can't. It is a general integration of the state of data. If I could point to a single piece of data, that would almost by necessity be CONCLUSIVE. But the general lack of technical data and of any detectable activity as opposed to verbiage is suggestive.

I am kind of leaning more and more toward megalomania with delusional tendancies. It would not suprise me if he is telling the truth as he sees it but that his "vision" is warped. Fraud is next in line. Of course, he may just be one p|$$ed off SOB who has something but who is sick of folks nagging him. One of my favorite lines is from Agatha Christy where someone says she feels as if she were being nibbled to death by haddock. I wonder if that isn't Rossi. (Low likelihood, but still possible).

Jeez, that is interesting isn't it. Should we all sit about and discuss our nondescript, non-specific, integrated sense of things rather than actually trying to present our reasons for thinking what we do.

Funny that others actually try to have a discussion, presenting their reasoning, and all you can do is argue about the meaning of the word 'fact'.

In all seriousness, if you don't think that Rossi is likely to be legit, I would really be interested to understand your reasoning. Alas, I suspect I will never hear it because you are unwilling to admit that your mysterious integrated sense of the data too closely resembles the points that everyone else has been making all along.

[ladajo]

Well Kite, you asked for fact. You are too lazy to get them for yourself. So, against my better judgement, I have spoonfed you a sampling.

Please feel free to critique each one as fact or fiction.

Do you mean the list of "to wits" that you provided several pages back? Did I not comment on each and every one of them?
Regarding "laziness", well sure! You all seem intent on convincing ME that your conclusions are FACT, that he IS a fraud. I am the Jury. the jury receives the evidence, it doesn't go out and look for it.
If you claim something IS so, show me the data. Or admit that there isn't any and you have basically jumped to a needless conclusion. It MAY in the final analysis prove to be the correct conclusion, but "show me the data".

When doing so, note that they are all direct, cited Rossi quotes. His own words.

Ummm, where were these?

But, at the end, I am suspecting that you will again qualify that just because you did not see the child steal the cookie, does not mean that they did it. Even, if they told you they did. Vacuous indeed.

Sorry, I must have missed where you quoted the "child stating that he stole a cookie".

Eventually, even a jury must decide. Or did you miss that part of the process?

Right, but the jury is still out. And since there is NO time limit on the jury, the jury may be out for a LONG time.

I firmly believe the Rossi is completely full of shyte. I accept that I can be wrong about it. I am man enough to take a position though, and man enough to be willing to accept being wrong.
Rossi has told lies. That fact will not change.

Up to the last two sentances, I couldn't argue with you. Show me the data. Did I miss it?

Rool back the last three or so pages over which I spoon feed you a number of Rossi quotes.

[Axil]

Rossi has made the connection with the customer he has always wanted to please. He could care less what his enemies think of him and may even say things that are intended to infuriate his dyed in the wool detractors. He laughs at these wolves as they howl at his moon.

He is now and independent actor; his future is secured; he has paid off his house; he has made a deal with the devil he has always wanted to satisfy, and he does not need to impress the haddock…the little fish that nip at his heals.

[Betruger]

Rossi has made the connection with the customer he has always wanted to please. He could care less what his enemies think of him and may even say things that are intended to infuriate his dyed in the wool detractors. He laughs at these wolves as they howl at his moon.

He is now and independent actor; his future is secured; he has paid off his house; he has made a deal with the devil he has always wanted to satisfy, and he does not need to impress the haddock…the little fish that nip at his heals.

Quoted for posterity.

[KitemanSA]

Rossi has made the connection with the customer he has always wanted to please. He could care less what his enemies think of him and may even say things that are intended to infuriate his dyed in the wool detractors. He laughs at these wolves as they howl at his moon.

He is now and independent actor; his future is secured; he has paid off his house; he has made a deal with the devil he has always wanted to satisfy, and he does not need to impress the haddock…the little fish that nip at his heals.

Fact or opinion?

[KitemanSA]

[/quote]

Jeez, that is interesting isn't it. Should we all sit about and discuss our nondescript, non-specific, integrated sense of things rather than actually trying to present our reasons for thinking what we do.

In order to "reason" I need "fact. There are few. So yes, all I have to tell you is that nondescript...

Funny that others actually try to have a discussion, presenting their reasoning, and all you can do is argue about the meaning of the word 'fact'.

They try to convince me that their CONCLUSIONS are based of facts. I simple ask to see the facts. What I have seem MOST of is discussion of other people's opinion being called fact.

In all seriousness, if you don't think that Rossi is likely to be legit, I would really be interested to understand your reasoning. Alas, I suspect I will never hear it because you are unwilling to admit that your mysterious integrated sense of the data too closely resembles the points that everyone else has been making all along.

My "reason" is that I feel that way. And yes, I suspect that a few of the points of the folks who claim "fact" are suggestive. I have identified two from among their lists and one on my own in the pages above. But most of the stuff being proposed as fact has been tripe, wishful thinking.
Ladajo has provided a set of quote above that I will now have to go and read in detail. Maybe these will rise above the level of tripe.

But remember, I feel no need to jump to conclusion, so as suggestive as the quotes may be, if they don't constitute "a smoking gun" then I will still withold judgement.