10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[ladajo]

SynergetX-HP.nl
February 15th, 2012 at 1:51 PM
Dear Mr. Rossi,

Asking this publicly in hope you clarify the public understanding of particular part of the process without addressing the inner working of the reactor and hoping to give you a hint on how to create electricity more efficient via a private email follow-up:
In reference to http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi ... s-emitted/
Is it correct to conclude that the heat of the eCat is mainly generated within the “nickel-powder/secret sauce” phase and is from there transferred through means of conduction (via the hydrogen) toward the heat exchanging surface and thus the much thought off mechanism of thermalization of gamma-rays by shielding lead is minimal to zero?

Could you elaborate how it came about that initially the thermalization of gamma-rays have been communicated as main source of heat?
It will be of big importance in process of obtaining certification that the gamma-ray issue is addressed in correct manner and is accepted as well controlled.

Andrea Rossi
February 15th, 2012 at 2:47 PM
Dear SynergetX-HP.nl:
To answer properly to your question should be unavoidable give information that we deem confidential. Of course we give to the certificator all the necessary information to grant absolute safety.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

[ladajo]

1- The E-Cat is absolutely safe, does not emit absolutely any kind of radiation in the room: we made thousands of hours of tests. You can install with absolute safety an E-Cat inside your room.
2- There will never be any kind of gamma emission, but our control panel will detect any kind of radiation anyway, and in case of detection of any kind of radiation above the background will stop the E-Cat. But, again we never detected radiations above the background outside the E-Cat ( Background radiation is the radiation you have in your room right noew, coming from the Universe).

Rossi has consistently refused to provide details of what is going on inside the E-Cat reactor, but he has mentioned that gamma rays have been detected. Recently in a video interview when asked about whether the E-Cat was a ‘cold fusion’ technology he said, “we have found traces of fusion because we have found 511 kev gamma rays at the output, which is the emission of a positron and an electron, and a positron is the product of a proton turning into a neutron, so we have some kind of fusion inside, but I do not think this is the main energy source.” Exactly how these gamma rays are shielded is not clear, but Rossi has mentioned in the past that lead is used.

Found it.

My bad, I recalled it as MeV. It is KeV. And given his explanation, it should be a substantial flux.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi ... s-emitted/

[ladajo]

stefano libardi
February 8th, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Dear Andrea,

I have been following you with great interest for almost one year now.
I apologize in advance if you answered already these questions:
1) My heater , as many others I guess, is not located in the basement but instead is inside my apartment. Will it be possible to use an e-cat or not, due to safety reasons (gamma rays, …)?
2) Is it possible to apply a gamma rays detector that could immediately stop the reaction in case of accidental external emission?

Cari saluti dal Trentino

Stefano Libardi

Andrea Rossi
February 8th, 2012 at 2:18 PM
Dear Stefano Libardi:
1- The E-Cat is absolutely safe, does not emit absolutely any kind of radiation in the room: we made thousands of hours of tests. You can install with absolute safety an E-Cat inside your room.
2- There will never be any kind of gamma emission, but our control panel will detect any kind of radiation anyway, and in case of detection of any kind of radiation above the background will stop the E-Cat. But, again we never detected radiations above the background outside the E-Cat ( Background radiation is the radiation you have in your room right noew, coming from the Universe).
Warm Regards,
A.R.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-182292

[ladajo]

John Tobey
January 16th, 2012 at 11:23 AM
Imagining a future with billions of devices based on e-cat technology, I wonder at what rate tritium will enter the environment as the reactors break down or even from normal use. Is the amount produced negligible at the scales imagined? I fear that this dream-come-true could become a nightmare for public health and the ecology. Please help calm my fear.

Best regards,
John

Andrea Rossi
January 16th, 2012 at 11:55 AM
Dear John Tobey:
We do not produce tritium. Besides, all the tests we made have given evidence of the fact that there are not radiations from the E-Cat versus the outside that change significantly the background. The gamma rays produced during the operation are turned into heat.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-170755

[tomclarke]

http://ecatfusion.com/e-cat/there-is-e- ... t-an-issue

Note that the 25% absorption depth in lead for 511 keV is about 1cm, so if these gammas exist nothing thin can shield them.

http://www.nikhef.nl/~h73/kn1c/praktiku ... 5_2_42.pdf

[ladajo]

Roger
January 15th, 2012 at 5:58 PM
I apologize Dr. Rossi for bringing up rumors but I am just a simple engineer who has become overly excited about what you are doing and wish you and your associates the very best.

Andrea Rossi
January 16th, 2012 at 7:09 AM
Dear Roger:
Another “rumorist” has written somewhere that our Customer has given us back the 1 MW E-VCat: this is another stupidity, totally false.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-170607

So, which of the sold and operating 1MW's was this? Oh, the one that shortly after this post turned up documented as having never left the Bologna garage, or even moved an inch for that matter...

Also, the only one ever built. Contrary to multiple previous claims of multiple 1MW units.

Language barrier my butt. I have lived and worked in Italy. I am fluent in Italian, fluent to level 4 or better when immersed. Rossi is (purposely and probably unconsciously) picking his words to gain weasel room later. Unfortunately, I have known others like him in Italy.
That said, I have also known many fine Italians, and still count a number as good friends. Rossi is a blight on the national reputation. No wonder he moved away.

[tomclarke]

Roger
January 15th, 2012 at 5:58 PM
I apologize Dr. Rossi for bringing up rumors but I am just a simple engineer who has become overly excited about what you are doing and wish you and your associates the very best.

Andrea Rossi
January 16th, 2012 at 7:09 AM
Dear Roger:
Another “rumorist” has written somewhere that our Customer has given us back the 1 MW E-VCat: this is another stupidity, totally false.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-170607

So, which of the sold and operating 1MW's was this? Oh, the one that shortly after this post turned up documented as having never left the Bologna garage, or even moved an inch for that matter...

Also, the only one ever built. Contrary to multiple previous claims of multiple 1MW units.

Language barrier my butt. I have lived and worked in Italy. I am fluent in Italian, fluent to level 4 or better when immersed. Rossi is (purposely and probably unconsciously) picking his words to gain weasel room later. Unfortunately, I have known others like him in Italy.
That said, I have also known many fine Italians, and still count a number as good friends. Rossi is a blight on the national reputation. No wonder he moved away.

I suppose this one quote is true. It was in Rossi's garage the whole time...

[ladajo]

Roger
January 15th, 2012 at 2:21 PM
There is a rumor going about that you are having trouble stabilizing the e-cats due to non-homogeneous evolution of energy within the Ni powder that melts the powder locally and shuts the process down. If so you might benefit by adding radial fins extending into the chamber to provide more heat transfer area and a path to the outer surface of the reactor. In addition, the inclusion of copper beads to the power would act as a damper to temporarily absorb bursts of heat and would reduce the local temperature gradients within the Ni powder. I wish you well in your endeavors.

Andrea Rossi
January 15th, 2012 at 5:15 PM
Dear Roger:
I am not a rumorist, so I do not care of rumors. Our E-Cats are perfectly stable up to 200 Celsius degrees, while we are resolving the problems to raise the temperature of the primary fluid to 400, to be able to make electricity. The reasons of instability at higher temperature are different from the rumors you heard about and we cannot give information about this issue, because is related to confidential data. National Instruments is helping us to resolve the issue.
Thank you for your attention,
Warm Regards,
A.R.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-170347

Another of those pesky Rossi misrepresentations of his relationship with someone. One of the string of NI quotes. To bad NI never saw things this way...

[ladajo]

http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Mome ... Interview/

This was the interview done by Sterling Allen (Mr. Reputable Himself) right before the ugly breakup.

Shame that.

Some of the better sections:

RADIO FREQUENCY GENERATORS -- In addition to the catalysts, a question was asked about the radio frequency generator that somehow interacts with the reactions inside of the core. Rossi stated this information is very proprietary, but gave a few clues. First, he compared the use of the radio frequencies to martial arts. He claims that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the fusion process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you. The full theory of how the system works will be revealed, "soon," he said.

GAMMA RADIATION AND ANTI-MATTER -- The E-Cat technology produces low energy gamma radiation that is converted into heat inside of the reactor. The signature of the gamma radiation that has been detected is said to be 511 keV at 180 degrees. These gamma rays are thought to be produced when electrons impact positrons and annihilate each other. So, if we understand correctly, Rossi theorizes that inside of the E-Cat there are anti-matter/matter annihilation taking place, releasing energy. However, he stated this is just a side effect of what really takes place, which he has previously indicated is nuclear fusion.

NATIONAL INSTRUMENTS AND STABILITY -- National Instruments (NI) is working with Rossi to design new control systems for the one megawatt and home E-Cat. With these new control systems, the stability of E-Cat units has been improved. The key issue needed to be resolved by the control systems is the ability to keep the reactor stable when steam temperatures above 120C are being produced. During the interview he stated that great progress is being made. On his blog he has indicated that they have been able to achieve stable steam production of 400C. This will be important for the efficient production of electricity.

He went on to say that in a meeting with NI's engineers and scientists, they explained to him that they did not want to just design a control system for him, but wanted to teach him how to design one. Their philosophy is not just to give a man a fish, but to teach the man to fish.

MILITARY CUSTOMER -- In addition to the help of NI, the Colonel Engineer who controlled the test of the one megawatt plant on Oct. 28th is working with Rossi to improve the control systems of the plant. Currently, the customer and NI are working to improve the control system, and are changing the gaskets in the system to stop leaks from taking place. He mentioned that the military representative he is working with is an expert into thermodynamic systems.

The fact that a new control system is being installed is not a bad thing. It is a very good thing. If the customer was not satisfied the E-Cat worked, he would not be helping with the development of a new control system. The fact that the military, NI, other partners that remain undisclosed, and Rossi are all working together on this project shows the significance of the technology -- and its reality!

Too bad NI was really doing this. Too bad the unit never left Bologna...
And who is this mystery Military customer???

[KitemanSA]

Kiteman,

I am curious about what has made you change your mind about Rossi.

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions. But "changed your mind" implies I had concluded something and had to change the conclusion. Not true.

Previously, you were 50/50 as to whether this was a fraud/real ("teetering"). Previously, you all but ruled out delusion.

Yup, but more data suggests less stability. Snakes don't you know.

I am kind of teetering on the fence between real and scam. If this is delusion, it seems to need to be MASS delusion. Still possible, but less likely.

Now you believe he is most likely a fraud and consider legitimacy to be a SMALL likelihood.

My opinions about him change any time additional DATA are provided. Data do NOT include people's statements ABOUT him but direct quotes and other published info.

Me? I think Rossi is a fraud. And a very good one. I believe this game has gone on longer than EEStor.

I tend to agree with your "thought" except I haven't ruled out delusion nor a SMALL likelihood that he might be on to something.
...

Apparently, everything anyone else says on this board that indicates that Rossi is being deceptive is dismissed by one justification or another. If everyone else is wrong then you have to have something else that is leading you to no longer believe him.

Nope. Any post that STATES AS FACT he is deceptive is met with a "show me". Posts that indicate one's opinion on his level of deception are either ignored or commented on with my own "opinion". Please note that MSimon opened his statement above with "I think". I replied with a general agreement with differences. I provided MY opinion. Fun discussion.

What have YOU seen that made YOU change YOUR mind?

See comments above.

Previously, you objected to my use of the term 'miracle' in relation to Rossi's supposed LENR. Now you use it yourself.

Probably because you had used it before. When talking with someone of a certain bent, I will sometimes use their language for friendliness sake.

...
I "think" he is a fraud or a megalomaniac, or maybe just with a very remote likelihood a miracle might be happening and he might be right.

What have YOU seen that makes YOU consider a legitimate Rossi reactor to be a miracle?

Define "miracle". If it works, then by definition it can't REALLY be a miracle. A miracle would be if he unmistakably made it work ONCE and only once. Let us just say that if it works it would be startling?, unexpected? fabulous? But I see nothing that PRECLUDES it. The only thing I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer for is the mechanism by which the excitation energy is released without high energy (and high power) EM radiation. I've seen a presentation that suggests it is somehow spread into the lattice rather than emitted as a gamma. How wasn't provided.

Please, if we are all so logically inept that you need to continuously correct our logical mistakes, please provide us with the correct logic that has led you from giving Rossi as much as a 50% chance of being legit to now only having a "remote likelihood" of being legit.

I think the "logic" is that for me there has been no need to "conclude" anything. I am willing to, if provided with "conclusive proof", but so far I've only seen folks make statements that imply their premature "conclusions" are somehow "fact".

Please note the difference between these two statements.

He is a fraud.
I think he is a fraud.

The first is a statement of FACT.
the second is an opinion.

To the first, show me, to the second... tick tock.

Or, are you only able to argue the opposite side to your own conclusions?

I'VE MADE NO CONCLUSIONS!!! I have opinions but no conclusions. I seek FACT... DATA. Give me FACT, I work on FACT not your "opinion". I cn acknoledge you opinion, and even to a point agree with your opinion, but I can't CONCLUDE based on your opinion.

[ladajo]

Italo R.
January 18th, 2012 at 2:02 PM
Dear Ing. Rossi, I have watched this interview with you in Bologna realized on the 12th of January 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odkfAjqA4pc
In it appears a 1 MW container.
May I ask you if that container is the same used in the last test with ing. Fioravanti and already sold to your customer?
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Italo R.

Andrea Rossi
January 18th, 2012 at 6:44 PM
Dear Italo R.
Yes, it is the same: we are still working on it with National Instruments and with the Customer. It will take another month before it will be ready.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-172124

I suppose this one quote is true. It was in Rossi's garage the whole time...

Yup, sure was. Note the dates and timeframes.

Of course, no further mention has ever been made of the previous 1MW units claimed to be built and sold. Maybe they are in a garage somewhere too...being worked on by NI...under military supervision...but in secret...

[tomclarke]

Please note the difference between these two statements.

He is a fraud.
I think he is a fraud.

The first is a statement of FACT.
the second is an opinion.

Since this is a statement about the world it can never be precisely proved or disproved. Normally we accept accounts of trials results in newspapers as true, but they can be mistaken, or fabricated.

Also, all any of us can to is report are belifs about the world, so "I think" is semantically vacuous. It is used to indicate that the thoughts are less clearly the result of external evidence, or that the probability assigned is lower than 100%. But in reality all real world statements are belief based on external evidence, and none are certain.

So in any such statement we are talking about probability.

It gets boring to preface every comment about Rossi with "my belief, based on all my observations, is that there is a very strong probability that" so I don't bother.

[seedload]

Kiteman,

I am curious about what has made you change your mind about Rossi.

More data, or "less" data depending on your view point, has shifted my opinions. But "changed your mind" implies I had concluded something and had to change the conclusion. Not true.

Previously, you were 50/50 as to whether this was a fraud/real ("teetering"). Previously, you all but ruled out delusion.

Yup, but more data suggests less stability. Snakes don't you know.

I am kind of teetering on the fence between real and scam. If this is delusion, it seems to need to be MASS delusion. Still possible, but less likely.

Now you believe he is most likely a fraud and consider legitimacy to be a SMALL likelihood.

My opinions about him change any time additional DATA are provided. Data do NOT include people's statements ABOUT him but direct quotes and other published info.

I tend to agree with your "thought" except I haven't ruled out delusion nor a SMALL likelihood that he might be on to something.
...

Apparently, everything anyone else says on this board that indicates that Rossi is being deceptive is dismissed by one justification or another. If everyone else is wrong then you have to have something else that is leading you to no longer believe him.

Nope. Any post that STATES AS FACT he is deceptive is met with a "show me". Posts that indicate one's opinion on his level of deception are either ignored or commented on with my own "opinion". Please note that MSimon opened his statement above with "I think". I replied with a general agreement with differences. I provided MY opinion. Fun discussion.

What have YOU seen that made YOU change YOUR mind?

See comments above.

Previously, you objected to my use of the term 'miracle' in relation to Rossi's supposed LENR. Now you use it yourself.

Probably because you had used it before. When talking with someone of a certain bent, I will sometimes use their language for friendliness sake.

...
I "think" he is a fraud or a megalomaniac, or maybe just with a very remote likelihood a miracle might be happening and he might be right.

What have YOU seen that makes YOU consider a legitimate Rossi reactor to be a miracle?

Define "miracle". If it works, then by definition it can't REALLY be a miracle. A miracle would be if he unmistakably made it work ONCE and only once. Let us just say that if it works it would be startling?, unexpected? fabulous? But I see nothing that PRECLUDES it. The only thing I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer for is the mechanism by which the excitation energy is released without high energy (and high power) EM radiation. I've seen a presentation that suggests it is somehow spread into the lattice rather than emitted as a gamma. How wasn't provided.

Please, if we are all so logically inept that you need to continuously correct our logical mistakes, please provide us with the correct logic that has led you from giving Rossi as much as a 50% chance of being legit to now only having a "remote likelihood" of being legit.

I think the "logic" is that for me there has been no need to "conclude" anything. I am willing to, if provided with "conclusive proof", but so far I've only seen folks make statements that imply their premature "conclusions" are somehow "fact".

Please note the difference between these two statements.

He is a fraud.
I think he is a fraud.

The first is a statement of FACT.
the second is an opinion.

To the first, show me, to the second... tick tock.

Or, are you only able to argue the opposite side to your own conclusions?

I'VE MADE NO CONCLUSIONS!!! I have opinions but no conclusions. I seek FACT... DATA. Give me FACT, I work on FACT not your "opinion". I cn acknoledge you opinion, and even to a point agree with your opinion, but I can't CONCLUDE based on your opinion.

Your opinion changed.

What changed your opinion?

[ladajo]

http://ecatfusion.com/e-cat/there-is-e- ... t-an-issue

Note that the 25% absorption depth in lead for 511 keV is about 1cm, so if these gammas exist nothing thin can shield them.

http://www.nikhef.nl/~h73/kn1c/praktiku ... 5_2_42.pdf

As I recall we did the math for attenuation volume and mass, and it was substantial...go figure...

[seedload]

It gets boring to preface every comment about Rossi with "my belief, based on all my observations, is that there is a very strong probability that" so I don't bother.

No kidding. People engaging in normal conversation don't find the need to qualify every statement with the obvious.