10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[KitemanSA]

The issue for me is the lack of a statement/description of an experiment that is REPEATABLE.

Have you gone to the reference sections of ANY of the three main subject related organizations and investigated to see whether your statement is correct? If not, how do you know the results are not repeatable?

You make statements of FACT similar to Axil's with as little back-up for your statement. Why should I listen to you any more than Axil?

eh!? Why would I need to when the 'inventor' si saying he needs to make his device self-destruct to stop people copying it. If there was already enough information to repeat the experiment, why whould he say such a thing!?!?

I am ABSOLUTELY sure that this experiment cannot be repeated, and known to be repeated accurately.

What argument do you have for the contrary, other than to speculate that there might be some small detail I might not have read? Is that the extent of your rebuttal?

Chris, I read your prior posting which contained that small extract I quoted as a condemnation of the entire subject of LENR. I called you on it and you respond with mockery about one specific incident. This practice is intellectually dishonest. It amounts to "bearing false witness".

You seem to have an ulterior motive in your general and apparent universal condemnation of LENR and if so you would be perpetrating a fraud. Is this a case of the pot calling the kettel black?

[tomclarke]

Have you gone to the reference sections of ANY of the three main subject related organizations and investigated to see whether your statement is correct? If not, how do you know the results are not repeatable?

You make statements of FACT similar to Axil's with as little back-up for your statement. Why should I listen to you any more than Axil?

eh!? Why would I need to when the 'inventor' si saying he needs to make his device self-destruct to stop people copying it. If there was already enough information to repeat the experiment, why whould he say such a thing!?!?

I am ABSOLUTELY sure that this experiment cannot be repeated, and known to be repeated accurately.

What argument do you have for the contrary, other than to speculate that there might be some small detail I might not have read? Is that the extent of your rebuttal?

Chris, I read your prior posting which contained that small extract I quoted as a condemnation of the entire subject of LENR. I called you on it and you respond with mockery about one specific incident. This practice is intellectually dishonest. It amounts to "bearing false witness".

You seem to have an ulterior motive in your general and apparent universal condemnation of LENR and if so you would be perpetrating a fraud. Is this a case of the pot calling the kettel black?

The problem is that LENR has no - repeat no - repeatable results which indicate anything other than chemical reactions or bad experimental practice. Put that together with lack of credible theory and the fact that everyone is biassed towards wanting clean cheap energy...

That includes Rossi. For those on this board (there cannot be many) who still see Rossi demos as providing difficult to refute positive evidence, do you remember the video recorded demo with Ny-technik? The fault in that methodology were always clear, but a careful analysis of the video data makes that much clearer.

Here is a discussion of the video'd steam experiment, pointing out that the input power (inferred from video data) was in fact much higher than suggested, and providing compelling data (again from video records) that the heat out could not be much more than that needed to raise water to 100C (thus you do not get the water->steam enthalpy added).

The two effects together mean no energy excess.

Don't agree?

Read the cross-examination and replies. Particularly this one.

KitemanSA - in case you think my highlighting Rossi as cherry-picking. Give me one phenomena which is repeatable and clearly indicates LENR?

If there is no such a whole set of results due to experimental error or non-nuclear effects are of course interesting to decode, but not sufficient to say "there is so much evidence there is a good chance there something behind LENR".

[seedload]

Your option, I guess, is to insist there is nothing to learn and stay ignorant!

Funny that you would call me ignorant and immediately follow it with a post to others begging them to cool down. Pretending to be a peace maker and adding little smilies to posts does not actually entitle you to say whatever you wish.

These are the things that I have chosen to learn about Rossi's claims:
1) He claims multiple miracles - exponentially more unlikely.
2) His businesses appear to be non-functional and fake in many respects.
3) He has a history of overblown claims.
4) The natural isotopic ratio of the copper ash makes no sense.
5) He is starting to make typical paranoid claims. Spies, threats, blackmail, etc.

The combination of the above along with some other more subtle things indicate to me that this is a scam/fraud.

To be honest, I am not sure what you even think I am ignorant of. The theory? What theory? WL? He says it's not WL? Your theory? So what. I don't know. I am more familiar with these things than you realize.

But, as I watch you get sucked further and further into this, using your superior intellect to get to the bottom of things, to the point of inventing your own theory to explain "what is going on here" (mini-axil), I like to think that maybe you are right about one thing.

Unlike you, I am simply too dumb and ignorant to be fooled.

[seedload]

If Rossi is worried about people stealing his secrets...
And his E-CAT is capable of making electricity...
Then he should sell electricity rather than the E-CAT.

Seems like a scalable business model that makes money without providing opportunity for others to look under the hood.

[Kahuna]

5) He is starting to make typical paranoid claims. Spies, threats, blackmail, etc.

Interesting indeed. I was not aware of this one. Do you have some references/examples?

Thanks.

[Giorgio]

Here, toward the end:
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... 2#comments

Edit:
If you do not want to read all the page search for Rojewski and Godbole

[Kahuna]

Here, toward the end:
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... 2#comments

Edit:
If you do not want to read all the page search for Rojewski and Godbole

Thanks G, found it. Interesting tho not conclusively irrational IMO. As they say: "you are not paranoid if someone really is following you." It is not beyond reason that Rossi has gotten some threats.

What I do think is beyond reason for a scammer is engaging the U. of Bologna for testing/theory development. If he goes ahead with them, his scam would certainly be revealed in short order. I think this is the next thing to watch closely. If he finds lots of reasons to not actually give them the E-Cat (delays etc.), that would raise some red flags for sure. Altho I don't think that game could be played for long either. If he has already paid them the 500K Euros, that would also seem an unreasonable thing for a scammer to do (altho some might argu it was an investment in the scam on his part).

Perhaps your inside source can shed some light on these UoB questions.

[Giorgio]

Perhaps your inside source can shed some light on these UoB questions.

They still have to sign the contract with UoB (not my source but directly from Rossi's blog) hence they still have to get any money.
I will meet my friend next week, if any different news I will post.

[seedload]

5) He is starting to make typical paranoid claims. Spies, threats, blackmail, etc.

Interesting indeed. I was not aware of this one. Do you have some references/examples?

Thanks.

Andrea Rossi
June 1st, 2011 at 9:18 AM
Dear Mr Tomasz Rojewski,
yes, I receive blackmails and threats on regular scale. But I want to tell you this: during a battle Napoleon had been closely hit by a whistling bomb, and his attendant told him to get away from the danger. He answered: “if God wants me to die, nothing can stop it, if God wants me to live, nobody can stop it”.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Andrea Rossi
June 1st, 2011 at 8:23 AM
Mr “Godbole” :
I know perfectly who you are and with whom you are working and trying to copy my process. Your is just an attempt of espionage.
Safety issues have been treated by us with the proper experts of the field and institutions, which have certified that we have no emissions. If you want to obtain a working apparatus, instead of the ridiculous scrap you made up to now, work more and talk less.
In two and a half years of tests we made every day with our E-Cats, no radiations above the law limits have beed detected outside the E-Cats, no radioactive wastes have been left, no radioactive materials have been used. We have huge certification about this issue, made not by assholes, who speak of safety without knowledge of the matter, but by experts who every day go where are radioactive emissions ( for example hospitals) to check that the law is respected. This is the people we are working with. You are just trying to blackmail us, but, sincerely, you are a paper tiger. And, by the way: your “group” has said repeatedly that my process is not good, that there are no nuclear reactions: now you sustain that my process is dangerous for the radiations…don’t you think here is a slight contradiction? Again: go to work and talk less, mr “Godbole”, or whatever you are really.
Regards,
Andrea Rossi

[KitemanSA]

KitemanSA - in case you think my highlighting Rossi as cherry-picking. Give me one phenomena which is repeatable and clearly indicates LENR?

I am new to this subject and have not read many papers on it so I can't answer that. But when a few folks make absolutist statements about "NO repeatable results"... while a review by a panel of scientists from a competing branch of research having half the reviewers saying the evidence is compelling, I will question the absolutist statements.

"Question Authority" (expecially those who unsupportedly CLAIM to be authority!!! ) That is my motto and I'm sticking to it. I admit that I don't apply it in a totally balanced manner. I seldom prick the absolutist bubble of someone I feel is unable to learn.

I have noticed that those who are most virulent in their support of a particular position tend to be least secure in their belief of it while simultaneously being convinced that they SHOULD believe in it. It is rather sad, but human nature I suppose.

I would point out however that the general tenor of the arguments around here have shifted from the virulent "physically impossible" kind to the "there is no repeatable evidence because XYZ didn't repeat a valid experiment" type. Progress? Digression? Only time will tell.

[KitemanSA]

Your option, I guess, is to insist there is nothing to learn and stay ignorant!

Funny that you would call me ignorant and immediately follow it with a post to others begging them to cool down. Pretending to be a peace maker and adding little smilies to posts does not actually entitle you to say whatever you wish.

Wouldn't everyone's time be better used if we all investigated what might be going on here? It is easy to make statements of fraud and throw out objection after objection. It is more helpful to find references that support or dispute specific conjectures. Try being a help, please?

If it is a fraud then, no, it is not better to spend our time trying to figure out what is going on here. That would be the definition of a waste of time.

Unless it is NOT a fraud. And even if it turns out to be in this case, better education should never be a waste of time. I have learned a lot following this process. Join me?
Your option, I guess, is to insist there is nothing to learn and stay ignorant!

It was not my intent to imply you were ignorant of all things. But ALL men are ignorant of SOME things. Education is the process of whittling away at that block of unknown things. So, are you claiming that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing left for you to learn about the physics of nuclear reactions in all phases and conditions of matter? If that is your claim, I feel sorry for you. But if you realize that there is much left to learn, then study it. Your option is to insist there is nothing to learn and stay ignorant... of those things left unlearned. (This last clause was intended to be obvious by implication in my prior post. I see that I should not have made the assumption that it would be obvious.)

[MSimon]

My favorite line from the cartoon "Tuffy's Tavern" is:

"You can't fool me. I'm too stupid."

[MSimon]

This device will have more impact on civilization than a hot water heater:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... -wave.html


Why can't we work to build one of those? Instead of all this useless bickering. Requires no new theories.

[KitemanSA]

To be honest, I am not sure what you even think I am ignorant of. The theory? What theory? WL? He says it's not WL? Your theory? So what. I don't know. I am more familiar with these things than you realize.

Wonderful. I have no idea and didn't intend to imply that I had any idea of your level of familiarity with this. Just that I suspect you aren't God and not omniscient so may learn something by study and positive discussion.

But, as I watch you get sucked further and further into this, using your superior intellect to get to the bottom of things, to the point of inventing your own theory to explain "what is going on here" (mini-axil) , I like to think that maybe you are right about one thing.

"Sucked" in... interesting choice of words. Suggesting "sucker". Was that your intent? No matter. "Superior intellect" is usually used as an insult about others who are too full of themselves. "(mini-axil)" now that is obviously just plain rude, I believe I know what your opinion of Axil is.
I fail to see why you insist on being rude.
I do want to understand the science behind this. If the science says it can't be I hope one day to understand why. Despite many proclaimations by folks on this forum that it "can't be" I have found repetedly that the universe MIGHT allow it after all.
I hope to understand it one day. I invited you to participate and you declined with snide words. So be it. None-the-less I would welcome any CONSTRUCTIVE discussion you wish to have.

Unlike you, I am simply too dumb and ignorant to be fooled.

Again the insults?

[Giorgio]

This device will have more impact on civilization than a hot water heater:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... -wave.html


Why can't we work to build one of those? Instead of all this useless bickering. Requires no new theories.

I didn't notice that you blogged about Prof. Mueller.
Nice to see that you are also following him.